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View Poll Results: Does Christianity Need A Mainstream Guitar Virtuoso?
YES. Christianity could use a Rock Virtuoso... 25 56.82%
NO. Leave it to the dying secular world.... 13 29.55%
NOT SURE. 6 13.64%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 04-14-2005, 03:01 PM   #121
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Could more people please vote for the first option: 'YES. Christianity could use a Rock Virtuoso... '

Because that is the correct side, but unfortunately it is starting to lose ground.

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Unread 04-14-2005, 03:02 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by thesteve
you're kinda missing the point i think. it's not so much that "they're worshipping God the way they want" but that no one is saying, "hey what if we did it differently?" or if they are, they aren't breaking into the market.

this overall thread (in my head) has more to do with marketing aspects of worship than it actually does with the worship itself.
From what I've seen, very little is made off of worship albums. Skillet's didn't make it high at all, I don't hear anything of Rebecca St. James' two albums anymore, and all the praise music is always on a station that is dedicated to praise and worship or the like. I think if these artists were interested in making money, they wouldn't be doing praise and worship music.

But to put a little common ground between us, I do agree that it never hurts to do something drastically different, but I don't see MWS and Third Day trying to make what sells. I know Mac Powell refuses to cross over to the secular market, and he could make a lot more money there. MWS has two praise albums and neither of them have made it onto the Christian rock radio. Plus, 85% of my music is Christian, I listen to the Christian radio all the time, and I don't see the songs as being so alike that there's something fishy going on in Nashville.
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Unread 04-14-2005, 03:54 PM   #123
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Marketing has been braught up a couple times so here are my thoughts along this subject:

to add to it, along the lines of "marketing" i have seen "Christian" bands go "secular." They seem to fall into the glory, and money seeking pit. This, I can also say with the "Christian" bands that stay in the relm of Christian, but are still doing it for the money, glory ect.

I think some great examples would be Relient K, MxPx, Norma Gean, and the list goes on and on of these bands that are hitting the seen on music download sites. But when you look into these guys, there goal doesn't seem to worship God. Now it isn't becuase of how good or bad they are, it's their motives for playing their music. FAME and MONEY! Norman Gean who is under BEC records (which soposaly are christian) said at their concert that they weren't "fu***** Christians" if that doesn't say something to you, im not sure what will.

what are your thoughts on these bands that are "Christian" by their label, but not by their actions?
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Unread 04-14-2005, 04:25 PM   #124
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As a huge fan of virtuoso guitarists, I honestly don't see how it would benefit christian music. Personally, I would love to see it happen for my own sake though. I am a huge fan of Dream Theater and listen to their music solely because of the virtuostic element. However, virtuoso's are (for the most part) only listened to by musicians. The rest of the music listening world doesn't always seem to enjoy the brilliance of their playing. I, personally have yet to meet a person who not a musician, but still liked DT, Satch, or Vai.

If you ask the majority of the rock music listeners out there (who don't play an instument), they will tell you that they are fans of Good Charlotte, Green Day, etc.... As you can see, most people really like these bands, but these bands have the guitar playing ability of my 10 year old nephew!!

So, *most* people who listen to music are inclined to NOT want to hear some virtuostic shred-fest. They want to hear the I-IV-V progressions, similar to Good Charlotte and Green Day.....and Michael W. Smith, and Third Day.

To reach the biggest audience, Christian music needs to "sound" like mainstream music in order for non-believers to really want to here it...and face it, virtuoso's are not mainstream. If a non-believer turned to a christian radio station and heard some 280bpm solo, they are not always as inclined to stay on the station to hear the rest of the message.

Again, I would personally love to hear a virtuostic christian guitarist on my christian radio station, but I would also love to hear a virtuositc guitarist on my rock station, but it won't happen, because most people don't really like it.
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Unread 04-14-2005, 04:30 PM   #125
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ugh...marketing...yeah...this topic has been beaten to death in a couple threads in the "Christian Music" forum.

Generally, outside of the "Christian" scene, praise and worship albums are often seen as efforts by artists who have hit a wall in creative flow but still feel like they need to put out an album. occasionally an honest fresh approach is taken, but often the efforts are stale and a bit repetitive.

I don't think it's quite the fault of guys like MWS, Third Day, etc. that the scene has become stale. often we pin the blame on them because they are the "big names" that everyone seems to emulate.
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Unread 04-14-2005, 09:25 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenacen
Pretty cynical.

If you don't like Michael W Smith, and you think that the way he chooses to worship God stinks, and you hate it so much that Third Day doesn't want to play "more than three chords in a song" as you put it and it stinks cuz it doesn't fit your musical taste, then don't listen to it.
I HAVE TO listen to it.

Heck, I have to PLAY IT EVERY SUNDAY MORNING.

World-class, absolutely timeless music is pushed out of the services by "Praise Song". Holy buckets. We got rid of "Send the Light" for "Praise Song"???

And let's get something straight, once and for all. MWS's music sounds like it sounds to sell the stuff.

Think I'm full of it? Then ask yourself why CHURCHES are PAYING PUBLISHING ROYALTIES to his RECORD COMPANY so that it can be played at services on Sunday morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenacen
Let them worship God how they please, and you've got no more right to judge them on keeping their praise music easy to play than you do for making it hard to play.
I have every right to judge the merit of their music, and I personally find it wanting.

Remember when churches mostly had organists and/or pianists? You know, the little old lady with the frail figure and horn-rimmed glasses? Man, some of those old gals could up and SHRED.

Heck, some of them would up and DARE YOU to put something in front of them that you thought they couldn't play.
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Unread 04-14-2005, 09:29 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve
I don't think it's quite the fault of guys like MWS, Third Day, etc. that the scene has become stale. often we pin the blame on them because they are the "big names" that everyone seems to emulate.
There...

You put your finger right on it.

They're not to "blame", but they are part of the machine. And the record company machines have only one interest - $$$$$.

My question is this:
How many folks are going to stand up like Rich Mullins and say "all the profits go to the church, pay me $24,000 a year and give the rest away for the Lord's work."
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Unread 04-14-2005, 11:57 PM   #128
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WOW, $24,000.00 a year??? I'll do it!!! Dang, that's over twice what i'm living off of right now!!! Geez, where do i sign???
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Unread 04-15-2005, 07:51 AM   #129
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WOW, $24,000.00 a year??? I'll do it!!! Dang, that's over twice what i'm living off of right now!!! Geez, where do i sign???
Bobby
You probably haven't sold oodles of albums yet.

Mullins took what was the national average income at the poverty level per year for himself, and donated everything else to the church. Publishing royalties, performing fees, record points, etc...

He lived in a desert in a trailer home on an Indian reservation and ministered to them there. If you think you can handle his lifestyle, I suggest you look up St. Francis of Assisi as Mullins emulated his lifestyle:

" It is based on the three vows of obedience, poverty, and chastity, special stress however being laid on poverty, which Francis sought to make the special characteristic of his order, and which became the sign to be contradicted. This vow of absolute poverty in the first and second orders and the reconciliation of the religious with the secular state in the Third Order of Penance are the chief novelties introduced by Francis in monastic regulation. "

Friend, you have no idea what you asking for, but if you think the life of a Franciscan monk is something you want to try on, I'll pray for your success.

Your first step is to sell EVERYTHING. Clothes, shoes, toothbrush... EVERYTHING. They'll either give you a guitar or let you keep one, and you can have a burlap tunic and rope belt... and that's IT. Everything else goes and the money is to be given to the poor and the church.

Oh... you'd have to take a vow of chastity and cannot marry too.

BTW - No shots at Catholicism. Back when St. Francis was around, Catholicism WAS Christianity IN TOTAL.
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Unread 04-15-2005, 07:55 AM   #130
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Virtuoso on Radio . . . Eric Johnson

Hey Guys,

We have to remember that what we all do individually to Worship is different. Worship is an act of Love.

We are all like the 3 or 4 year old child who tries with all their might to draw something beautiful with crayons. Then, proudly presents it to their Dad or Mom. When Dad or Mom looks at it, they look at it through the eyes of Love and see the beauty of the intention . . . not the obvious imperfections. The best we can do is pitifully flawed and when compared with Gods creative perfection, horribly ugly. It is the Love that goes into these efforts that is significant to God. That is Worship. Whether music, art, or anything, it is the Love and desire to Serve our God that matters.

With that said, only God can truly know if the modern Christian Artist is serving himself or herself. It really doesn't matter what their skill level is as much as their intention in their heart.

All of this can seem to complicate things more, but it really doesn't. Just do what you do the very best that you can. If you have a talent to mass produce songs that sound similar, but are truly trying to serve God, then do it with a joyful heart. You are not wrong to do that. If you have a talent to shred away and are truly trying to serve God, then do that! (Please!) Use your God given talents to serve God in whatever way you can.

Do we have a need for Virtuosos? If you need to hear one, the answer is for you is yes. If you don't, than no. It is your personal need that matters. I think sometimes we need to forget about the big picture and do what God has called us personally to do. God is in control of the big picture.

PS: I just wanted to say that I can still hear Eric Johnson on a daily basis up here in NH on the radio. That guy can play!!

With Love,
Your Brother in Christ,
John
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Unread 04-15-2005, 10:27 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenacen
But to put a little common ground between us, I do agree that it never hurts to do something drastically different, but I don't see MWS and Third Day trying to make what sells. I know Mac Powell refuses to cross over to the secular market, and he could make a lot more money there. MWS has two praise albums and neither of them have made it onto the Christian rock radio.
One of my all time favorite Christian Albumns is MWS's "I 2 I"... Absolutely love that albumn.. One of the best Christian Songs of all time, Secret Ambition, also has a very good Guitar Solo in it... And in reality, that's all I want in some of today's music... Great instrumentals... Guitar, Piano, Sax, I don't care... Somebody just Jam... Please...
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Unread 04-15-2005, 10:29 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay42
Could more people please vote for the first option: 'YES. Christianity could use a Rock Virtuoso... '

Because that is the correct side, but unfortunately it is starting to lose ground.
I'd vote again, but it won't let me...
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Unread 04-15-2005, 10:59 AM   #133
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i actually still haven't voted, because, if you look at my postings in this thread, i don't really care.
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Unread 04-15-2005, 11:03 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve
i actually still haven't voted, because, if you look at my postings in this thread, i don't really care.



I didn't vote cause my response (like steve's) isn't listed........


but I went ahead (finally) and choose "not sure"

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Unread 04-15-2005, 03:04 PM   #135
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John,
Yeah, Eric's pretty Fabulous!!!
OH, and so are Your comments!!!
thx for sharing,Bro!!!
Bobby
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