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View Poll Results: Does Christianity Need A Mainstream Guitar Virtuoso?
YES. Christianity could use a Rock Virtuoso... 25 56.82%
NO. Leave it to the dying secular world.... 13 29.55%
NOT SURE. 6 13.64%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 04-12-2005, 04:50 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenacen
Well I guess I'll start by saying that I don't like the comments on here calling today's praise music a bunch of mush. In praise music, if you are more concerned with the music than the worship, then something needs to change. And on the musical perspective, I don't think it sounds like mush, at least what I've heard.
OK, fine then. I don't worship God through P&W lyrics because I find them boring. Therefore, it's not acheiving it's purpose.

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Unread 04-12-2005, 05:04 PM   #92
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and so we return to the idea of subjective aesthetic appeal.
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Unread 04-12-2005, 05:38 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by MJ_Avalanche
Yep. I could still do a I-IV-V, but if made it Cmaj9(#11)-F6-G13(b9), it's automatically much cooler than just C-F-G.
That's one jazzy progression. I like it. Rather unresolved, though...
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Unread 04-12-2005, 06:15 PM   #94
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I wouldn't have the foggiest clue of how to play those....

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Unread 04-12-2005, 07:58 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Mattlock
OK, fine then. I don't worship God through P&W lyrics because I find them boring. Therefore, it's not acheiving it's purpose.


I don't think that we need a virtiuoso,or another one. Phil Keaggy's enough,plus he's a good witness.I feel,and this is just me,that sometimes musicians will look at virtiusos' on a higher plane,and put them way above everything else.Some will give these players godlike worship,not everybody,but there are some that do that.
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Unread 04-12-2005, 08:24 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KATMAN
I don't think that we need a virtiuoso,or another one. Phil Keaggy's enough,plus he's a good witness.I feel,and this is just me,that sometimes musicians will look at virtiusos' on a higher plane,and put them way above everything else.Some will give these players godlike worship,not everybody,but there are some that do that.
I'm assuming that you're not saying that we can't have onther virtuoso. Because I don't quite want to give up my aspirations of becoming an incredibly good guitarist and playing music.

Here's a thought: Guitar virtuoso music isn't really that popular anyways, among the popular listening crowd.
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Unread 04-12-2005, 08:59 PM   #97
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I agree,I was just stating that most guitarist will put virtuosos in a idol like postion,not Christian guitarist,but people who listen to Vai,Satch,Malmsteen,etc.I've been to H/C and seen some of the post there.I feel that we should concetrate on the Holy Spirit presence at these concerts than on the playing.
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Unread 04-12-2005, 09:09 PM   #98
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Yeah, sometimes virtuosos get put into an idolatic (is that a word?) position, bbut you usually can't prevent that from happening. I say just let the man (or woman) play!

I'd say that when I go to a concert, I want to hear some great playing. The purpose is different. If I go somewhere to be led into worship, then distractions are bad, that's true, but this question was about if mainstream Christian music needs a virtuoso, not if virtuosos could lead worship. I think that mainstream Christian music does need a virtuoso, just as much as it needs great musicians from wherever.
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Unread 04-12-2005, 09:12 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Rainer.
Well, I'd say that when I go to a concert, I want to hear some great playing. The purpose is different. If I go somewhere to be led into worship, then distractions are bad, that's true, but this question was about if mainstream Christian music needs a virtuoso, not if virtuosos could lead worship. I think that mainstream Christian music does need a virtuoso, just as much as it needs great musicians from wherever.
Exactly.
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Unread 04-13-2005, 12:12 AM   #100
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I quit calling the players I look up to idols because of how the term is used. But like I would say Zakk Wylde is my idol, well I know I meant that I look up to him as a great player but not as a god like person. But other people more than likely aren't gonna know that and really it was prob just a poor choice of words. But I don't think looking up to these guys make them god like. These guys are guitar heros and have earned the respect that they get. I think you would have to worry about these guys being vain more than any thing. I think Praise music could be a little more edgy at times but Contemp Christian music need an amazing player not praise. I've seen some talk about local ploayers being good and I've even mentioned one of my friend who is pretty good but these guys aren't seen by the masses like Brad Avery or Mark Lee(again I use the names of people and bands that are common to me). And just because us few people metionone or two local players that can throw down doesn't help the descussion because they're not part of the industry. And why is it so wrong to listen to Christian music for entertainment, I'm sorry I don't think Christian music or any other music with Christian themes(I Saw The Light, Long BNlack Train) is just for praising the lord I think he gives it to us for entertaiment also.
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Unread 04-13-2005, 07:49 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenacen
Well I guess I'll start by saying that I don't like the comments on here calling today's praise music a bunch of mush.
I believe it is, and I'm sticking to that belief.

It is basically the Christian equivalent of Brittany Spears or the country drivel Nashville plops out like cookie dough.

You know why country music (out of Nashville) all sounds the same? Because they have the same few studio musicians, the same few producers, the same few writers doing everything.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenacen
In praise music, if you are more concerned with the music than the worship, then something needs to change. And on the musical perspective, I don't think it sounds like mush, at least what I've heard.
I disagree. Look through an old hymnal sometime. That was not least-common-denominator music, and what we have now is just awful. Somebody explain to me why performing great music is not a worshipful act????

You mentioned M.W. Smith, who may be worst offender #1.

BLAH.

It's a formula. The entire Nashville mafia has this down to a science... Not too much dissonance... keep the words simple... catchy phrase for the opening line... "three/four word shouter" for the chorus... easy on the chords since we want to make sure anybody can play this a week after picking up the guitar for the first time or we won't sell truckloads of sheet music... get the chorus up quick since we don't want to bore anybody and we all know how short our audience's span of attention is...

They've got focus groups and formulas and staff writers trained like monkeys not to push the boundaries at all, and in 30 years every single one of these songs is going to drop right off of the planet.

Enough with the formulas, give us something we can sink our teeth in to. Somebody write a timeless classic like Amazing Grace again. And somebody else tell Third Day that they can have more than three chords in a song.

My group may never get a recording contract, and that's OK, but I'll tell you what the conditions are if we do:

#1 - WE pick the producer and the studio, and neither of them will have anything to do with Nashville.

#2 - We NEVER record anything out of anybody's catalog unless WE pick it and WE WILL NOT agree to the record company picking anything out for us. NO pre-fabricated "Insert Name Here" PRAISE albums. "Petra Praise", "Third Day Praise", "Yngwie Malmsteen Praise", whatever... BARF! Not going to happen.

#3 - If I can't play it through in a single pass, or it can't be done live, it's not going on tape (disk...), and I don't care how much the studio time costs.

EVERY song I write is praise and worship, even if it has a 5 minute thermonuclear-shred guitar solo, thundering drums, slap/pop bass and pyrotechnics going off in the pulpit.


And if a record company doesn't like it, they can go pound sand. I need them like I need a hole in my head. If the Lord wants folks to hear it, they will.

Jesus and I are not in this gig for the money, AND THE RECORD COMPANIES MOST CERTAINLY ARE. The creator of the universe IS NOT having a cash-flow problem, he couldn't care less about whether or not something is "market-friendly".

Rich Mullins and Rick Altizer weren't in it for the money, I know that for sure, and Rich Mullins has been called home. Most everybody else... well... I guess that's for God to decide... I've got my own ideas.
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Unread 04-13-2005, 07:51 AM   #102
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wow that's a cynical way of looking at it...not saying you're wrong...just cynical.
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Unread 04-13-2005, 08:07 AM   #103
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wow that's a cynical way of looking at it...not saying you're wrong...just cynical.
Yeah, that was harsh, and I went off on a Class-A rant.

I just spin myself up in knots about this stuff. Everytime I see a television preacher begging for money I want to punch him/her square in the nose.

"Vengeance is mine, thus saith the Lord..." I think I remember that verse so well because he probably knows how much that stuff bothers me and wants to remind me that he's in charge before I punch Jack Van Impe or Benny Hinn's lights out, thereby keeping me out of jail.

Benny's one with the Lord? Let's see him heal an amputee.

Paul was one with the Lord, he blinded a guy. I DARE Benny to blind me. Show me what you've got, bub.

Believe you me, it's not the Lord I doubt. It's the clown using his name to rake in the cash.

The early church sold EVERYTHING they had, gave it to the poor and followed the Lord... They didn't give the money to a preacher, they gave it to the poor. God doesn't need money. If he did, he'd just make some appear out of thin air.

And here's the REALLY troubling part... I make a phenominal living. I'm not rich, but I want for nothing. Nice cars, nice gear, nice house, etc...

And you know what? It's all just junk (unless I'm doing something for the Lord with it). In 20 years the cars will have rusted to dust. The house will eventually fall down, and in the end I am going to have to face my creator and answer for what I did with all the blessings he gave me - AND I'M FALLING SHORT.

I am convinced of two things:

My God is a great god, and I am a great sinner.

And my firmest belief right now is that Contemporary Christian Music has lost it's soul to the business end of things.

Holy cow. CHEVROLET is the "Official Truck of Third Day"! Look at their website!!!

Yessir... selling pickups for Jesus. Now, is this a ministry or not??? Last I checked, Jesus didn't endorse Nike or need a K3500 Diesel 4wd Dualie with leather seats... Matter of fact, the leather he rode into Jerusalem still had it's legs attached.

Last edited by PacerX; 04-13-2005 at 08:23 AM.
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Unread 04-13-2005, 08:59 AM   #104
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I'll agree with PacerX regarding the music industries formula. I don't think it's wrong to expect more from christian artists or worship leaders. But at the same time, it is a business. If you are listening to a popular christian artists for the sake of just listening to music you are going to get a simple repetitive piece of music. If there was no christian music industry we would be having this very conversation about the secular industry, and we all know that it is just a bunch of patterns and formulas.
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Unread 04-13-2005, 09:21 AM   #105
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I'll agree with PacerX regarding the music industries formula. I don't think it's wrong to expect more from christian artists or worship leaders. But at the same time, it is a business. If you are listening to a popular christian artists for the sake of just listening to music you are going to get a simple repetitive piece of music. If there was no christian music industry we would be having this very conversation about the secular industry, and we all know that it is just a bunch of patterns and formulas.
Maybe the formula is just a result of the need to move product in the hopes that more people are reached. I guess I can understand that. Boy, it just seems that the formula has become all-pervasive.

When money and Christianity meet, my antennae shoot up. I guess I'm hyper-sensitive about it.
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