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View Poll Results: Does Christianity Need A Mainstream Guitar Virtuoso?
YES. Christianity could use a Rock Virtuoso... 25 56.82%
NO. Leave it to the dying secular world.... 13 29.55%
NOT SURE. 6 13.64%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 04-11-2005, 03:26 PM   #61
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One of the reasons I brought this thread up is when Jay and I were at the Vai concert, we were maybe 15 - 20 mins into the concert and the very obvious scent of Pot started to fill the room... Along with the smell of stale beer, stale beer farts, cigarette smoke and so forth... I just thought how great it would be to go to a Christian concert with the same level of musicianship as Vai and his band... Here are two grown christian men, and we have to go to the House of Blues and subject ourselves to second hand smoke and drunks to hear the best that the world has to offer...

Everyone has certainly made excellent points on each side of the coin... Certainly the idea of what the music is about is a big part, especially for the Christian... The non-musician christian (N-MC) buys music largely, IMO, for these top two reasons...

1. Popularity
2. Lyrics - Do the words speak something to you
3. Quality of Music (Arrangements, Musicianship, Vocal quality, etc...)

But for the Christian Musician (CM) or musicians regardless of religious affiliation buys for the exact opposite reasons...

1. Quality of Music
2. Lyrics - Do the words speak something to you
3. Popularity...

Since playing guitar I have found many musicians who 99% of society don't even know about because I am pursuing the bettering of my ability as a musician...

It's unfortunate that the "Chrisitan Music Industry" pretty much has a bear hug as to what is heard on mainstream... Because of this headlock that is on CM, I it also limits the ability of musicians who listen to the music as well because the listners/musicians feel that their level of playing only needs to be what is heard on the radio... So you then have musicians who are happy with drop-d tunings and power chords...

Christian music seems to be lyric driven... And that is fine... If it changing lives, encouraging and uplifting then great... But there is nothing wrong with throwing in a great guitar solo, or even a piano solo, or violin... I don't care... Show the world that Christians Rock baby....

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Unread 04-11-2005, 03:42 PM   #62
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Maybe this is better communicated as Passion. Passion beats pure virtuosity every time in my book, but there has to be some level of virtuosity to properly convey passion with the guitar.
So you have to be a soloist to have passion? Screw Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney and Kurt Cobain then...
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Unread 04-11-2005, 05:07 PM   #63
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Passion via Guitar . . .

You have to understand,

This is all purely subjective. Please do not take offense. My opinion is my perspective. There is no absolute right or wrong on this matter.

OK, I am talking about being able to convey passion with the guitar alone . The artists you mention (So you have to be a soloist to have passion? Screw Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney and Kurt Cobain then...) best convey their passion through their lyrics. Musically, they are average. They have done a few cool things musically, especially Paul Mc, but otherwise . . . nothing special (to me).

For me, as a musician, I want to be impressed. Hence the desire for the guitar gurus like Vai and Satch.

I like Cool Ranch Doritos also, is that wrong too?

Sincerely,
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Unread 04-11-2005, 06:16 PM   #64
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I think a great christian guitarist would be great. There are plenty of good christian guitarists, i'm sure but i'd like to see one really step it up and i don't know lol, be like super or something. hey, maybe i'll do it.
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Unread 04-11-2005, 06:55 PM   #65
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i've really felt like doing a few shameless plugs for my band's guitarist...even though he isn't a virtuoso...he can wail pretty well.

anyway, the more i read opinions, the less i think it's a big deal. The way I see it, if you want there to be a Christian virtuoso, then become a Christian virtuoso.
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Unread 04-11-2005, 07:50 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubeamp7
OK, I am talking about being able to convey passion with the guitar alone . The artists you mention (So you have to be a soloist to have passion? Screw Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney and Kurt Cobain then...) best convey their passion through their lyrics. Musically, they are average. They have done a few cool things musically, especially Paul Mc, but otherwise . . . nothing special (to me).
Weather or not you think those bands/artists are good is subjective, but weather or not bands can show passion on guitar with out soloing like hell is not. Cobain played power-chords all the time, but he put passion into his guitar playing. He just kept it simple because his songs didn't need a 32052375078 note per second solo the whole way through.

And Steve, the definitions just make me look more elite.
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Unread 04-11-2005, 07:51 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattlock

And Steve, the definitions just make me look more elite.
but they also make me look dumber...like i don't even know what aesthetic means...haha
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Unread 04-12-2005, 07:26 AM   #68
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^ I didn't either. Hence, I use http://dictionary.com
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Unread 04-12-2005, 07:54 AM   #69
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What the scene needs in general:

Less Nashville-ized oatmeal pulp.

Praise and Worship DOES NOT have to equal "lame". It does NOT have to be three chord watered down country mush. If you look at hymns from a couple of hundred years ago, they WERE NOT simple pieces of music. They were tough and had a lot more thought put into the composition of the first few measures than Third Day ever thought existed.


YES, Christian music needs ultra-capable musicians that are not afraid of excellence.

GET OUT OF NASHVILLE. DO IT NOW.
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Unread 04-12-2005, 08:03 AM   #70
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My Last Word on This . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattlock
Weather or not you think those bands/artists are good is subjective, but weather or not bands can show passion on guitar with out soloing like hell is not. Cobain played power-chords all the time, but he put passion into his guitar playing. He just kept it simple because his songs didn't need a 32052375078 note per second solo the whole way through.

And Steve, the definitions just make me look more elite.
Don't you think he would have been more passionate in his solos if he could? If you equate "Loud" or "Overly Distorted" with Passion, well then your definition is satisfied.

When an artist can take a single note, and play it in a way that makes you feel something more than just the note, that is special. Take BB King for example. Very few notes per minute, but mucho Passion. People like Vai and Satch can play one note in a myriad of different ways. That enables them to project Passion. It is just that the fast part of their work is what people like best. That is what sells their records, and what they enjoy doing.

It is clear your opinion is pretty fixed and I respect that. Personally, I never could stand Nirvana. It was pretty obvious he hated life, even in his music. 'Nuff Said!!

On to the next subject . . .

Sincerely,
Your Brother in Christ,
John
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Unread 04-12-2005, 08:29 AM   #71
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i dont know if this has already been said but... christianity has phill keaggy who is a canidate for the best guitarest, lincoln brewster was considered a virtuoso on the guitar, and brian the head from korn just converted to christianity,
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Unread 04-12-2005, 10:01 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospec
i dont know if this has already been said but... christianity has phill keaggy who is a canidate for the best guitarest, lincoln brewster was considered a virtuoso on the guitar, and brian the head from korn just converted to christianity,
Lincoln Brewster is exaclty what I don't like about Christian Music... The only thing I hear of him are basically cover songs of Praise and Worship songs... (I am sure that he does his own stuff, but radio around here only plays his P&W stuff) Plus he sounds like a copy of Green Days vocalist (forget his name). If he is a virtuoso on the guitar, then play the guitar...

It just seems that we have an abundance of Acoustic players who learn to play a I-IV-V progression and learned what a capo is... The music industry says, "Ok, you've got the look, you know a few chords, now sing a few cover praise and worship songs, and we will market you to the young pre-pubesent female teenagers to make a few bucks..."
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Unread 04-12-2005, 10:47 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacerX
What the scene needs in general:

Less Nashville-ized oatmeal pulp.

Praise and Worship DOES NOT have to equal "lame". It does NOT have to be three chord watered down country mush. If you look at hymns from a couple of hundred years ago, they WERE NOT simple pieces of music. They were tough and had a lot more thought put into the composition of the first few measures than Third Day ever thought existed.


YES, Christian music needs ultra-capable musicians that are not afraid of excellence.

GET OUT OF NASHVILLE. DO IT NOW.
alot of this has been caused by the transition from a classical music mindset to the modern, simplistic, pop-music mindset, as well as the transtion from piano being the prominent instrument to guitar being the prominent instrument. it's a musical change that reflects a societal change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubeamp7
Don't you think he would have been more passionate in his solos if he could? If you equate "Loud" or "Overly Distorted" with Passion, well then your definition is satisfied.

When an artist can take a single note, and play it in a way that makes you feel something more than just the note, that is special. Take BB King for example. Very few notes per minute, but mucho Passion. People like Vai and Satch can play one note in a myriad of different ways. That enables them to project Passion. It is just that the fast part of their work is what people like best. That is what sells their records, and what they enjoy doing.

It is clear your opinion is pretty fixed and I respect that. Personally, I never could stand Nirvana. It was pretty obvious he hated life, even in his music. 'Nuff Said!!
personally i don't like Nirvana...but i can agree that Cobain put passion into the words we wrote. personally i think that the sloppiness and dirt invovled in Nirvana's guitar solos is what conveys the passion.
in my mind musical virtuosity =/= passion. when i listen to John Petrucci (Dream Theater) i hear virtuosity, but it strikes me as stale and repetitious. when i listen to MeWithoutYou, Denison Marrs, or Copeland I don't hear the same level of musical talent, but i do hear alot of passion through the vocals, and through the dynamics of the music.
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Unread 04-12-2005, 11:52 AM   #74
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alot of this has been caused by the transition from a classical music mindset to the modern, simplistic, pop-music mindset, as well as the transtion from piano being the prominent instrument to guitar being the prominent instrument. it's a musical change that reflects a societal change.
In general, I would agree.

In the specific case of contemporary Christian music I disagree...

It's ESPECIALLY lame.

Praise & Worship has come to mean "three chords and out", which it never was. Amazing Grace is an amazing piece of music (it's based off of a pentatonic scale, btw... you can play the entire melody on the black keys of the piano). Bach's music WAS worship music.

We, as Christian artists, need to move the large majority of ourselves away from the mediocrity present in the Nashville pap we get 99% of the time. The music should be challenging and full of the fire in our souls, fully as developed and anything out there. We should be the benchmark by which all other forms of modern music are judged from genre to genre.
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Unread 04-12-2005, 11:54 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospec
i dont know if this has already been said but... christianity has phill keaggy who is a canidate for the best guitarest, lincoln brewster was considered a virtuoso on the guitar, and brian the head from korn just converted to christianity,
As much as I love Phil Keaggy, he can be hardly considered a "mainstream" guitar virtuoso.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubeamp7
Don't you think he would have been more passionate in his solos if he could? If you equate "Loud" or "Overly Distorted" with Passion, well then your definition is satisfied.

When an artist can take a single note, and play it in a way that makes you feel something more than just the note, that is special. Take BB King for example. Very few notes per minute, but mucho Passion. People like Vai and Satch can play one note in a myriad of different ways. That enables them to project Passion. It is just that the fast part of their work is what people like best. That is what sells their records, and what they enjoy doing.

It is clear your opinion is pretty fixed and I respect that. Personally, I never could stand Nirvana. It was pretty obvious he hated life, even in his music. 'Nuff Said!!
Well, lets get perspective from a big Nirvana fan here. His guitar solos hardly had any bearing whatsoever on traditional music theory. Not in the least virtuoso, but they did fit the music, which I think is important, and what made them great. But I find that his guitar playing in his riffs was incredibly catchy. That's where his great pop sense came into play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve
alot of this has been caused by the transition from a classical music mindset to the modern, simplistic, pop-music mindset, as well as the transtion from piano being the prominent instrument to guitar being the prominent instrument. it's a musical change that reflects a societal change.
I fully agree. Praise leaders now also like to have stuff that's easy to play. This kind of stuff would be music that the whole praise team could have music for, could learn in about 5 min., and would be easy for everyone. That means simple chord changes, interchangable riffs, and a basic verse/chorus format. And of course, guitarists want to be able to play all this stuff easily after a month or two of learning.
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