MinimumWageLaws

Hitch · 03-25-2005, 12:23 AM

Do you support minimum wage laws?

Can you do so Scripturally?

JerryLove · 03-25-2005, 06:32 AM

Yes.

I would be surprised if you could; scripture allows for a zero wage (slavery).

**+Donny** · 03-25-2005, 09:55 AM

Actually, in the case of Israelite slavery, you were selling yourself as an indentured servant to pay off debt.
As far as foreign slaves though, I think you are probably right, but that wouldn't really be in the same category, as it is a slave and not someone willingly selling their labor in a market.

Now, Jerry, why would you support minimum wage laws? I never understand the basis for them.

JerryLove · 03-25-2005, 10:02 AM

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Now, Jerry, why would you support minimum wage laws? I never understand the basis for them.

Because I don't believe that iindentured servitute is ultimately useful; and because I'm the kind of guy who believes that people who work should be able to make a living wage with it.

**+Donny** · 03-25-2005, 10:26 AM

How do you define "living wage" and what if their work, in the present market, won't gain them that? Do you really think a company will hire them instead of someone more skilled, if the cost is the same, or only slightly higher?

JerryLove · 03-25-2005, 10:30 AM

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How do you define "living wage"

Long and complex answer that forttunately federal agencies do pretty well for me.

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and what if their work, in the present market, won't gain them that?

Then you need a minimum wage law.

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Do you really think a company will hire them instead of someone more skilled, if the cost is the same, or only slightly higher?

Don't care. I'm worried about the person who does get hired, not who that person is.

**+Donny** · 03-25-2005, 10:50 AM

But someone is hired based whether they are worth the cost. If they cost is raised for certain types of labor by the minimum wage laws, why would a company hire person A, whose labor is worth less than the minimum wage, over person B, whose labor is worth as much as the minimum wage? IOW, how is it that minimum wage laws do anything aside from removing job opportunities for people who would normally make less than the minimum wage?

JerryLove · 03-25-2005, 11:04 AM

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But someone is hired based whether they are worth the cost.

If you mean how a given person is hired over another, no. A company will hire the best person they can that will do the work for what they are willing to pay. "Best" includes some less tangible factors, like their likelyhood to remain on the job (why someone can be "overqualified"), but generally a middle school would hire a nobel-winning physicist to teach middle-schoolers.

[qutoe] If they cost is raised for certain types of labor by the minimum wage laws, why would a company hire person A, whose labor is worth less than the minimum wage, over person B, whose labor is worth as much as the minimum wage? [/quote] I don't care if they do.

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IOW, how is it that minimum wage laws do anything aside from removing job opportunities for people who would normally make less than the minimum wage?

It means that those that do work are guarenteed a living wage. If you want to know what the alternative is like, google the word "shantytown".

**+Donny** · 03-25-2005, 11:57 AM

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It means that those that do work are guarenteed a living wage.

But the number of "those that do work" has been decreased because the minimum wage lage knocks out a class of workers whose work is not worth the minimum wage. I really don't see how it is helping such people.

s0233425 · 03-25-2005, 12:18 PM

Minimum wage is a good thing I think. It stops extortion from employers, and gives everyone a fair wage. In Britain I think it's about £4.85 an hour. Which is $9.06 per hour to Americans.

**+Donny** · 03-25-2005, 12:29 PM

Why do you think it prevents extortion and gives everyone a fair wage?

And it is definitely not $9.06 for Americans. I make less than that.

Nate · 03-25-2005, 12:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Hitch

Do you support minimum wage laws?

No.

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Can you do so Scripturally?

No.

Those were easy questions.

JerryLove · 03-25-2005, 12:35 PM

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But the number of "those that do work" has been decreased because the minimum wage lage knocks out a class of workers whose work is not worth the minimum wage. I really don't see how it is helping such people.

It helps those people who are working... we can discuss ways to up the working population (lower unemployment) seperately if you like.

Your argument boils down to "minimum wages reduce employment".

**+Donny** · 03-25-2005, 12:46 PM

No, my argument is not that simple. I am saying that I see no basis for it because it hurts the vast majority of people it is designed to help (by lowering their employment rate) and only actually raises the wages of maybe a small percentage of people who would only have been a bit lower than the minimum wage anyway.

So, my argument would be that these are the effects of minimum wage laws:

1)It does nothing to those who make more than the minimum wage.
2)It helps those who would make a slight amount less than the minimum wage.
3)It hurts those who would make any significant amount less than the minimum wage.

JerryLove · 03-25-2005, 01:02 PM

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Your argument boils down to "minimum wages reduce employment".

[/quote]No, my argument is not that simple. I am saying that I see no basis for it because it hurts the vast majority of people it is designed to help (by lowering their employment rate) and only actually raises the wages of maybe a small percentage of people who would only have been a bit lower than the minimum wage anyway.[/quote] It seems to me that you are saying exactly what I said you are saying.

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So, my argument would be that these are the effects of minimum wage laws:

1)It does nothing to those who make more than the minimum wage.
2)It helps those who would make a slight amount less than the minimum wage.
3)It hurts those who would make any significant amount less than the minimum wage.

1) True
2) Yes.
3) You've offered no support for that.

You seem to keep arguing "they will hire A rather than B". OK, let's see what that means.

Was A employed before?
If "no" then you've given a job opportunity to the jobless. That's useful.
If "yes" the "OK, who's doing that job now".

If the number of jobs is fixed (you argued that your case was not built around unemployment rates), then you can't argue that minimum wages cost jobs... and I don't really care which person gets a given job... they are all just "people".