[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo

Well if you are going into the missions field, then haven't you already given up your chance at financial stability?

If I work as a "registered nurse" then they will actually pay me VERY well and it will allow for the travel necessary for missions.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by loriborealis

Hi Becky (and Gavin as well)
From reading this thread, I have a few points I want to make.

1. Long distance relationships, though dead hard, are an enormous blessing! So be encouraged admist the hardship, because there are advantages to long distance relationships that are priceless! Scott and I have found that, though we spent approx. 7 weeks total in each others presence before getting married, that we know each other better than many couples who have been dating in the same town for years. This is because of the communication skills that get built up from only interacting via telephone/email/letter/CGR. So don't fear the distance as a negative. If you can get through the distance, you will be well on your way to a good marriage! (For some, the distance causes the break up as well, but this is also a blessing. Better to break up than get married and realise you should've broken up.)

2. It has it's disadvantages, too, though. One thing that I was not prepared for was the way we acted when we did see each other. You mentioned that when you had time together, you held hands, cuddled, flirted, etc. So did we! But the reason all this came on at once, you doing stuff you've never done before (and this is just based on our experience that I say this) it is because as your emotional closeness evolves, your physical closeness stays in it's baby-stage, so to speak. We were very mature emotionally by the time we saw each other the second time, but our hormones went nuts because of it. We were so close, and yet had never learned to control our bodies. So suddenly, we found ourselves ready to be married emotionally, and unable to do anything physically. So this will be hard for you. From talking to other couples in LDRs I've heard the same. Be aware of this, and be prayerfully prepared and whatever you do, don't assume it won't be a problem!

3. Which leads me to #3. Gavin, you said lust has never been a problem for you. Well you are at least a step ahead of the rest of us, BUT you are not in the clear by far! I said the same thing to Scott and my friends: "Oh, I'm very controlled and I won't fall into sexual sin. It's not a problem for me." But when I met Mr. Right, holy cow I lost control! "Pride comes before the fall." Don't assume it won't happen to you because it never has. If Becky is Miss Right, you will find it very hard to not fall into temptation.

4. Leading me to my last point. If you never find yourself tempted, esp after 8 years, as Bill said, marriage is a bad idea. We are MEANT to desire one another, and if you never desire her outside of marriage, do you think it will change inside? This goes for you, too, Becky. With my last boyfriend, I thought it was great that we didn't have a problem with lust-and i mean not taht we didn't physically do anything, but that we didnt even desire to. But I have since realised that that was not right. I recall a woman posting on here once before saying she didn't desire her husband, and before they got married, she thought it was God protecting her. She was wrong. She had to learn to desire her husband after marriage, which isn't as easy as it sounds. Marriage is hard enough as it is.


So, anyway, sorry I posted so much. I think you two are well on your way to a happy relationship, and I hope the best for you. Just don't try to wait 8 years (gosh, why even wait 4? Becky, can you work enough for half that time to support the two of you, even if you have to live meagerly in a one bedroom apt or something?) It's worth it. But I think it would be hell waiting so long, esp if you are long distance. THe waiting gets harder and harder and more and more painful every single day. We got married within a year. That's not for everyone, I suppose, but I don't htink waiting that long should be for anyone.

Hope this helps a little?

A very good post indeed. But does desiring one another (in this context) always have to be a sexual thing? Notice even that the verse that Bill posted by Paul was not a command from God but rather Paul's advice with permission from God to speak it.

1Cr 7:6 But I speak this by permission, [and] not of commandment.

So I do not see why marriage should "only" be the result of burning/lust and not simply caring about the person and wanting them to always be in your life. Perhaps there is something I am missing in that context that needs being brought to my attention.

And it isn't a thing about pride. Note that I clearly attributed my not having a problem with it to God. There has just been so much that He has done in my life that has made me that way. Where lusting after such things hasn't been my motivator. I am by no means saying that I do not struggle with lust. I think it would be a fairly safe guess to say that everyone does to some degree. But I will say that it is not a consuming thing for me. Does that make better sense? My pride/confidence, if there is any, is certainly not in my own strength's, but God's.

[SamR]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

A very good post indeed. But does desiring one another (in this context) always have to be a sexual thing? Notice even that the verse that Bill posted by Paul was not a command from God but rather Paul's advice with permission from God to speak it.

1Cr 7:6 But I speak this by permission, [and] not of commandment.

So I do not see why marriage should "only" be the result of burning/lust and not simply caring about the person and wanting them to always be in your life. Perhaps there is something I am missing in that context that needs being brought to my attention.

And it isn't a thing about pride. Note that I clearly attributed my not having a problem with it to God. There has just been so much that He has done in my life that has made me that way. Where lusting after such things hasn't been my motivator. I am by no means saying that I do not struggle with lust. I think it would be a fairly safe guess to say that everyone does to some degree. But I will say that it is not a consuming thing for me. Does that make better sense? My pride/confidence, if there is any, is certainly not in my own strength's, but God's.

I think on some level there has to be the 'burning/lust' there. There are many people in my life (including girls) who I care about and would enjoy it for them to always be in my life, but in no way do I think of them as a possible marriage partner.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by SamR

I think on some level there has to be the 'burning/lust' there. There are many people in my life (including girls) who I care about and would enjoy it for them to always be in my life, but in no way do I think of them as a possible marriage partner.

Well, if we are talking in terms of "on some level" ok. That works. But I do not think that the difference between a girl that you want to marry and girls that you don't particularly want to marry should be a difference of lust. Which is what your post seems to be saying it is.

[Blindman]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

I desire to be able to spend a lot of time with you in person. To be able to go to the movies with you and eat dinner with you. For my family to get to know you and such. I desire to be able to help you with school in whatever area that I am able. That is where my desire is from. Not a physical one actually. It's mostly just the ability to actually look you in the eyes when I'm talking to you. I know that sounds silly, but it's really something I can't take for granted.

Originally Posted by Lightknight

I am by no means saying that I do not struggle with lust. I think it would be a fairly safe guess to say that everyone does to some degree. But I will say that it is not a consuming thing for me.

Hello Gavin (and Becky). I'm trying to figure out how to phrase my reply to this: let me know if this makes sense...

As Christians we focus a lot on the danger of lust, and have an implicit assumption that if people end up going too far physically, it's mainly because they gave in to their lustful desires. But I believe that, especially among Christians, lust is one of the _least_ prevalent causes of sexual immorality.

I would say that most people in our culture turn to sexual behavior primarily for affirmation. For women, that generally means seeking the ego boost of "tasting" their beauty through someone else, the affirmation of seeing that someone delights in them in that way. For us as men, being able to cause pleasure to someone else is in many ways a more powerful "high" than any physical pleasure (If you doubt that, note the prevalence in our society of viagra-like drugs and various "enhancement" treatments for men - all of which promise to boost, not physical pleasure, but ego.)

There's a ton of other inducements to sexual immorality as well - looking for comfort, or a sense of closeness and intimacy, or even just a distraction from life (it's when you're down and depressed that temptation is the hardest to resist). And there's the danger of just doing what you think the other person wants. And there are plenty of other motives involved as well.

Anyways, I'm saying all this because I know from personal experience that if the only "red flags" you're watching out for are lustful feelings and pursuit of physical pleasure, that it's very easy to get caught up in immoral behavior for other reasons - and if all you're watching out for is physical lust, you may not notice what's happening. Watch out for a desire for physical closeness that seems "pure" ("I don't want to do anything sexual, I just want to hold her close...") but that opens the door to impurity. Temptation if horribly sneaky at times...

Not that I think you're in immediate danger of any of that. But just be aware that your desires for closeness and intimacy and for affirmation can be far more dangerous than physical desire, and should be watched just as closely.

[Becky]

Originally Posted by Blindman

Anyways, I'm saying all this because I know from personal experience that if the only "red flags" you're watching out for are lustful feelings and pursuit of physical pleasure, that it's very easy to get caught up in immoral behavior for other reasons - and if all you're watching out for is physical lust, you may not notice what's happening. Watch out for a desire for physical closeness that seems "pure" ("I don't want to do anything sexual, I just want to hold her close...") but that opens the door to impurity. Temptation if horribly sneaky at times...

could you explain this a bit more? I'm not sure what you are saying,

[loriborealis]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

A very good post indeed. But does desiring one another (in this context) always have to be a sexual thing? Notice even that the verse that Bill posted by Paul was not a command from God but rather Paul's advice with permission from God to speak it.

1Cr 7:6 But I speak this by permission, [and] not of commandment.

So I do not see why marriage should "only" be the result of burning/lust and not simply caring about the person and wanting them to always be in your life. Perhaps there is something I am missing in that context that needs being brought to my attention.

And it isn't a thing about pride. Note that I clearly attributed my not having a problem with it to God. There has just been so much that He has done in my life that has made me that way. Where lusting after such things hasn't been my motivator. I am by no means saying that I do not struggle with lust. I think it would be a fairly safe guess to say that everyone does to some degree. But I will say that it is not a consuming thing for me. Does that make better sense? My pride/confidence, if there is any, is certainly not in my own strength's, but God's.

Gavin, I didn't mean to imply that you were "proud" necessarily, but there is a level of pride in that you haven't worried about this before therefore you aren't worried about it now. I'm not saying you are puffed up, but I am saying that you are letting your guard down by not realising the potential to get caught up in impurity. So please don't take that as me accusing you, it wasn't that at all.

I certainly don't think that the ONLY reason you get married is to fulfill your lust, though if this is a problem, then you should get married.

And as far as desiring someone, I do think there would be some aspect of sexual attraction if you were to get married. I dont mean you ought to lust to know she's the one for you, but if you look at her and see just a pretty face and think, "Aw" and that's it, she may just be friend-material. I've got lots of guy friends that I care deeply about and even think are attractive, but I don't see them the way I saw my husband before we were married. When i saw Scott, something moved inside of me that was strong--I believe this is called "chemistry".

I don't know really how to word this correctly, but basically marriage is not all about sex, but sex IS IMPORTANT within marriage. If you get married and still think, "Aw she's cute" and yet you don't really desire her, your marriage will be in trouble, and her self esteem will plummet. She must know she is a gorgeous creature and you desire her immensely. Think of how Solomon's wife felt in Song of Solomon. She knew she was drop dead gorgeous because Solomon desired her so. Even before they were married, he showed her he desired her (without sin, without fleshly lust, without "arousing or awakening love until it so desired.") If you don't feel some aspect of this (and again, it doesn't have to be lustful) then a romantic relationship won't make sense.

I hope this doesn't confuse you or cause either of you to start wondering and searching your hearts for this kind of desire, because basically you know if it's there. If you desire each other, and you know in your heart your desire isn't of the plain lusty kind, then you will be fine.


And one last comment, do think about what Blindman said. These temptations come up on you in the darndest way. Satan is no fool--he knows he can't just throw porn or something at you and it's gonna work. He'll try to fool you in sneaky ways, like Blindman says, so this is why I say be on the lookout even though you've not struggled this way before. Remember, we are all sinners and we can all fail. And sometimes we can justify things as "just nice" when in reality it's just sin.

[Becky]

alright, I've been thinking alot about what everyone is saying, and these are just a few thoughts I've had about it.

1. the total time Gavin and I have been in person has been, 1 week. Before he even THINKS about buying me a ring, I want to get to know him in person, to be sure that I know him. Some advice I've received is that you don't truly know a person untill you've seen them in their own habbitat. Now, I see what you say about the long distance deal, and I am still considering that. There is a way to deal with both, that wont cause Gavin to have to buy a ton of plane tickets to see me. Having a sister living in florida, I could move near her.

don't freak out yet Gavin it's just a thought


Further, most of you will be shocked by this... but some of what Gavin was saying, was simply protecting me. The idea of having intercorse somewhat sickens me. It is a problem with me, that I'm trying to work out.. and he wants me whether I ever work it out or not. That is why the somewhat deffensiveness about that topic. It's totally a problem with me, nothing to do with him.

[Gracie Love]

Honestly you both have a very good head on your shoulders. You are both God centered.

That being said, Becky, it is not a big thing if you get married with out even living in the same area and getting to know him face to face. Because know matter how well you think you know a person before you get married and live together, you still spend the first couple of years getting to know each other. It is fun and challenging. I am sure the other married folk would agree. What Bill and Lori have said about the communication skills through a long distance relationship are priceless in marriage.

I really commend you both on trying to go about your relationship in a God centered way.

[Blindman]

Originally Posted by Becky

could you explain this a bit more? I'm not sure what you are saying,

Well, what I mean by that is that our human need for physical closeness and our sexual desires are two different things. We all, to a greater or lesser degree, need physical contact with others in order to remain sane, and that _isn't_ a sexual need - it's a need that, for me, would just as easily be met by a hug from another man as from a woman. You probably know people who are constantly touching people around them - putting a hand on your shoulder as they walk past, etc. That's just the human need for physcial contact at work - there's nothing sexual about it.

The problem is that in a relationship, that sort of physical contact can mean one thing to one person and something else to the other - or can be done in pure motives yet lead to temptation. That's all that I was trying to point out. Depending on how much of a part physical contact with others has in your personalities, it may or may not be a big issue for you.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Becky

alright, I've been thinking alot about what everyone is saying, and these are just a few thoughts I've had about it.

1. the total time Gavin and I have been in person has been, 1 week. Before he even THINKS about buying me a ring, I want to get to know him in person, to be sure that I know him. Some advice I've received is that you don't truly know a person untill you've seen them in their own habbitat. Now, I see what you say about the long distance deal, and I am still considering that. There is a way to deal with both, that wont cause Gavin to have to buy a ton of plane tickets to see me. Having a sister living in florida, I could move near her.

don't freak out yet Gavin it's just a thought

It is actually the other reasons for you to come here that concern me. Namely getting you in with the Wesley foundation, helping you learn the lay of the land before starting classes here (i.e. bus schedules), introducing you to friends here so that you will have more friends while taking classes (a combination of classes and work might interfere with making so many friends in the future), getting a job for you here (a job down in south Florida won't help you much if you can't get one up here) and probably other things that I'm forgetting right now. The idea wasn't to come immediately here JUST so that you could be with me more. It is more out of practicality than anything else.

We've known eachother for a long time online. I can wait whatever amount of time you need and would be more than happy to continue buying plane tickets that allow me to see you for awhile. I just think it would be a whole heck of a lot easier and more beneficial for you to come here first off. Talk it over with your parents. See what they think. I trust your parents' judgement.

Further, most of you will be shocked by this... but some of what Gavin was saying, was simply protecting me. The idea of having intercorse somewhat sickens me. It is a problem with me, that I'm trying to work out.. and he wants me whether I ever work it out or not. That is why the somewhat deffensiveness about that topic. It's totally a problem with me, nothing to do with him.

You didn't have to explain that (I assume you find that topic to be extremely personal). But, yes, that is the reason for the defensiveness. I, of course, would not have been so blunt.

[danalyn]

I know this thread was asking about being in a God centered relationship, but I think the issue of temptation, etc. got somewhat blown out of proportion here. This is a rather young relationship.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by danalyn

I know this thread was asking about being in a God centered relationship, but I think the issue of temptation, etc. got somewhat blown out of proportion here. This is a rather young relationship.

Yeah, it seems as though people are saying that temptation is so horrendously invincible that we shouldn't even see eachother. Yep, sounds out of proportion to me.

[Blindman]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Yeah, it seems as though people are saying that temptation is so horrendously invincible that we shouldn't even see eachother.

Well, I for one didn't intend my comments that way. I think this relationship is a good thing. Maybe I was dumping all my relationship advice on you without considering what aspects of that advice would or wouldn't apply to you; I apologize for that. Much of what I was saying is stuff you might not run into for years...

I guess all that I was trying to communicate was that, if you're open, a relationship like this will teach you things about yourself and others that you could never learn elsewhere. In learning about the human _need_ for love, you'll discover a whole bunch of needs in yourselves - some godly, some tainted by the Fall. What I was trying to do above was to describe some of that bewildering hodgepodge of emotions and desires inside of us, that we gloss over and ignore when we talk about relationships just in terms of love versus lust.

[Lightknight]

Bro, I really wasn't homing in on your post. I understood what you meant and am grateful for such intelligent and wise advice. Thankyou very much!