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Old 03-05-2005, 10:21 AM   #1
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Creed of the Modern Thinker

Found this by Steve Turner:

Quote:
Creed of the Modern Thinker -Stever Turner
We believe in Marxfreudanddarwin
We believe everything is OK
as long as you don't hurt anyone
to the best of your definition of hurt,
and to the best of your knowledge.

We believe in sex before, during, and after marriage.
We believe in the therapy of sin.
We believe that adultery is fun.
We believe that sodomy's OK.
We believe that taboos are taboo.

We believe that everything's getting better
despite evidence to the contrary.
The evidence must be investigated
And you can prove anything with evidence.

We believe there's something in horoscopes UFO's and bent spoons.
Jesus was a good man just like Buddha, Mohammed, and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher though we think
His good morals were bad.

We believe that all religions are basically the same-at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of creation,
sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.

We believe that after death comes the Nothing
Because when you ask the dead what happens they say nothing.
If death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then its
compulsory heaven for all excepting perhaps
Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Kahn

We believe in Masters and Johnson
What's selected is average.
What's average is normal.
What's normal is good.

We believe in total disarmament.
We believe there are direct links between warfare and bloodshed.
Americans should beat their guns into tractors .
And the Russians would be sure to follow.

We believe that man is essentially good.
It's only his behavior that lets him down.
This is the fault of society.
Society is the fault of conditions.
Conditions are the fault of society.

We believe that each man must find the truth that is right for him.
Reality will adapt accordingly.
The universe will readjust.
History will alter.
We believe that there is no absolute truth
excepting the truth
that there is no absolute truth.

We believe in the rejection of creeds,
And the flowering of individual thought.

If chance be
the Father of all flesh,
disaster is his rainbow in the sky
and when you hear

State of Emergency!

Sniper Kills Ten!

Troops on Rampage!

Whites go Looting!

Bomb Blasts School!

It is but the sound of man
worshipping his maker.

Thoughts?

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Old 03-05-2005, 10:52 AM   #2
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Funny. May I offer a riposte?

Quote:
The Fundamentalist Christian Creed
by Qingu

We believe that all truth is in the Bible.
We believe this because the Bible says so.
But what does the Bible actually say?
Well, some of us believe in theonomy.
Others of us believe in partial preterism.
Others believe that the Church is infallible.
Some of us believe in Oneness.
But others think that those of us who believe in Oneness are heretics.
Some of us believe that heretics are okay.
Some of us believe that heretics deserve to be burned and tortured to death.
In short, we don't really know for sure what the Bible says.
We just know that whatever we think the Bible says is the absolute truth,
And everyone else is wrong.

We believe in a strong moral foundation.
This strong moral foundation must lie in the Bible--
Because if there are no absolute morals, then how can you have a strong moral foundation?
But it must not lie in all the verses that we find distasteful,
such as commandments to kill unbelievers,
enslave the inhabitants of cities we conquer,
or, if those cities are appointed for us by God,
kill every living thing in those cities including the pregnant women.
We believe that things like slavery and rape are wrong.
But when confronted with the Biblical verses that condone slavery and rape,
We will either say "those laws don't apply to us,"
or "It was a different culture."
So, in truth, we really don't believe in absolute morality.
In fact, we interpret these verses based on our own, subjective morality,
garnered from the enlightenment
which tells us that slavery and rape are wrong.
And we even go so far to claim that any Christian who disagrees that rape and slavery are wrong,
based on these Biblical verses that condone rape and slavery,
such as almost every Christian up until the enlightenment,
Are not "true Christians."

We believe that God is good and loving.
We believe that God damns at least 75% of humanity to hell and also that he killed everyone on earth in a flood because he regretted making them in the first place.
We have a very supple definition of "good" and of "loving."

We believe that abortion is wrong.
Abortion is a sin.
We expend enormous effort combatting this sin.
This sin is found nowhere in the Bible.
Well, except for a verse that is probably talking about harming a pregnant woman.

We believe homosexuality is a sin.
It is an abomination.
We cannot allow homosexuals to have the right to live in sin.
We believe the government must uphold this moral law found in the Bible.
However, we do not believe the government should uphold any other moral law in the Bible,
Such as the one outlawing divorce, or adultery,
And especially not the ones that command you to stone disobedient children
Or make a virgin marry her rapist.
No, we just like the laws against homosexuality, for some reason...

We believe that evolution is Satanic.
We believe that the 95% of scientists who believe in evolution,
And the 99% of biologists who believe in evolution,
are wrong.
Some of us believe they are part of a conspiracy.
We believe the truth about the origin of life can be found in Genesis,
Which says that God created the earth in six days,
And all the kinds of the animals, one-by-one.
However, we do not believe that the truth of the shape of the cosmos can be found in Genesis,
Which says that God stretched out the firmament of the sky to separate the waters below it from the waters above it
And that he set all the stars, the sun, the moon and the planets in the sky.
We interpret this verse figuratively.
We are heliocentrists!
Well, except the few of us who are geocentrists.
And also, some of us believe the world is flat.
Again, we really have trouble agreeing on stuff like that.

We believe that Jesus and the Father are one and are equal and that the Father is greater than Jesus.
We believe that 42=22 and that purple is red.
We believe that Judas died by hanging himself by a tree, which snapped, and then he fell upside down, onto a bunch of rocks, which split his stomach open.
We believe that logic is perhaps a useful guideline but in no way applies to our religion--
Although it certainly applies to everyone else's religion.

We believe that we should obey our sovereign governments, as commanded in the Bible.
We also believe that we should overthrow the government of Iraq.
We believe that Saddam has stockpiles of nuclear weapons
And that Saddam was behind al-Qaida
Because at one point Bush said this was true
And Bush is one of us.
We don't put much stock in things like evidence and skepticism in areas like international relations and politics.
We like blind faith much better.
After all, blind faith works so well for us in Christianity!
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Old 03-05-2005, 10:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingu
Funny. May I offer a riposte?
Thanks for the reply Qingu but I think the orginal article was more for people who believe that truth is relative. We're both on the same page because we both believe that the truth is in fact objective and can be known.
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Old 03-05-2005, 11:00 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneHope
Thanks for the reply Qingu but I think the orginal article was more for people who believe that truth is relative. We're both on the same page because we both believe that the truth is in fact objective and can be known.
I don't know. The poem seemed to be, like mine, a bunch of overgeneralizations of "tolerant liberal society." Unlike my poem, though, I think the poet invented this society.
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Old 03-05-2005, 11:14 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingu
Unlike my poem, though, I think the poet invented this society.
I guess then that you have never lived in Canada or Britain (the poem was written by a British guy for a British newspaper I think).
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Old 03-05-2005, 11:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneHope
I guess then that you have never lived in Canada or Britain (the poem was written by a British guy for a British newspaper I think).
Actually, in a conversation with my mom, she basically said that she believed in all those things.
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Old 03-05-2005, 11:25 AM   #7
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What is the point of this thread? I'm closing it if there's no good reason given to keep it open.
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Old 03-05-2005, 11:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneHope
I guess then that you have never lived in Canada or Britain (the poem was written by a British guy for a British newspaper I think).
I'm going to soon, though! Praise the lord.
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Old 03-05-2005, 11:48 AM   #9
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Well, in answer to the original poem, I guess I'm wondering what exactly his problem is about certain issues he brings up.

In particular, I'm very confused as to why exactly he is critical of the idea of progress. Are things getting worse? When were they better? I'm guessing the answer is not "when Christians were in control of the government" -- look at the dark ages.

I don't necesarily think things are getting better all the time. But I would rather live now than during almost any time in the past. I think a huge difference between secularites like me and Christians like you is that we like the ideal of "a future better than the past," while you have this notion of a golden age that you want to harken back to -- whether it's the garden of Eden or 1950s America with traditional family values. (I'm not sure if you had a 1950s America-style society in 1950s Canada but I think you know what I'm talking about).

This idea of a golden age, and of a doomed future, is not just limited to Christianity. Every religion I've studied feels this way about the future. In Hinduism, we are living in the Kali Yuga -- the last, most evil age, right before the world will be consumed in flame and water and remade. Wherever you see a strong religious base (in all countries and in all eras), you always see a culture that thinks the world is teetering on the brink of destruction because it has moved away from some ancient ideal world. You would think that after millenium and millenium of the world not being destroyed, religious people would get the point and accept the idea that the future can be better than the past. But I guess that's just not as good of a selling point as "REPENT NOW FOR THE END IS NEAR."
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Old 03-05-2005, 12:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epaphras
What is the point of this thread? I'm closing it if there's no good reason given to keep it open.
I guess what I was trying to bring up was a discussion on how relativism and tolerance affect our society and whether or not they are good things. I guess, this could go into another forum.

So if you want, Epaphras, you can close this thread and if I so desire I can bring up the subject elsewhere.
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Old 03-05-2005, 12:25 PM   #11
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Well, I'd be happy to discuss tolerance and relativism. How do you think they affect our society? I don't really see any adverse effects of tolerance or relativism even cited in your poem other than, perhaps, tolerating stuff like homosexuality (which certainly doesn't bother me).

I think that across the boards, tolerant societies have been more successful. Rome was tolerant of its subjects and consequently many of its subjects respected Roman authority and even tried to emulate it. At the height of the Islamic empire, the Muslim society was very tolerant and unsurprisingly this coincided with a flowering of the arts and philosophy in Muslim culture and many people emulated them.

Tolerant societies always seem to be the ones where people want to live. By contrast, I don't think anyone would want to live in a Biblical society.
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Old 03-05-2005, 12:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneHope
I guess what I was trying to bring up was a discussion on how relativism and tolerance affect our society and whether or not they are good things. I guess, this could go into another forum.

So if you want, Epaphras, you can close this thread and if I so desire I can bring up the subject elsewhere.
Well now that you've given the discussion a definite purpose and direction, it stays open

_Epaphras
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Old 03-05-2005, 01:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingu
Well, I'd be happy to discuss tolerance and relativism. How do you think they affect our society? I don't really see any adverse effects of tolerance or relativism even cited in your poem other than, perhaps, tolerating stuff like homosexuality (which certainly doesn't bother me).
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Quote:
I think that across the boards, tolerant societies have been more successful. Rome was tolerant of its subjects and consequently many of its subjects respected Roman authority and even tried to emulate it. At the height of the Islamic empire, the Muslim society was very tolerant and unsurprisingly this coincided with a flowering of the arts and philosophy in Muslim culture and many people emulated them.
I agree. I think that America's success has been because of its tolerance. Before you jump my case about equality and Christian domination, you must understand that I mean relatively speaking. Yes, America has its problems, but I think that it has flourished as a nation because it allows people to choose for themselves how they want to believe.

Quote:
Tolerant societies always seem to be the ones where people want to live. By contrast, I don't think anyone would want to live in a Biblical society.
I am assuming that by Biblical society you mean OT?

Quote:
We believe in sex before, during, and after marriage.
We believe in the therapy of sin.
We believe that adultery is fun.
We believe that sodomy's OK.
We believe that taboos are taboo.
This part might have some affect on society in that it contributes to the breakdown of marriage. I don't think that it is ever a good thing that distrust (adultery) enter into a marriage or that a child be raised without a mother and a father (sex outside of marriage could easily result in this).

Quote:
We believe that all religions are basically the same-at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of creation,
sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.
And I think this part is just plain silly
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And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. - 1 Cor 2:1-5
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Old 03-05-2005, 01:39 PM   #14
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I read the first creed. It's ridiculous. Actually, it's really stupid. It should be called "Creed of Steven Turner". He sort of contradicts himself when he confines modern thinkers to these generalizations (all modern thinkers conform to this creed all about not conforming).

I live in Canada. Steven Turner is an idiot.
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Old 03-05-2005, 01:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingu
By contrast, I don't think anyone would want to live in a Biblical society.
Except the people who are comfortable with the bible. But other than that, well...

I agree. Tolerant society creates opportunities on so many different levels. On the other hand, we could separate people by religion and persecute anyone that doesn't conform to our beliefs. Imagine how successful that would be.

Oh wait...they do that to atheists....
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