Expel the immoral brother!

loriborealis · 03-05-2005, 04:48 AM

I have a question regarding 1 Corinthians 5-
and maybe the only reason I have this question is because the subject is very close to my heart right now, though I do not expect anyone to soften this passage because of that.

1 Cor 5 tells us that if there is an immoral brother among you, he should be expelled from your fellowship. I perfectly agree. But it goes on to say,

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people– 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

Do you think that this means you should not associate with that person at all until they repent? Should we literally stop calling them, stop having coffee with them, stop eating with them? If so, then how is that showing the grace of God to them? It is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance, is it not?

Also, would this include family members? If your father gets kicked out of the church, are you to stop associating with him? Your husband? How would that correlate with Scripture when we are to honour our parents, and never leave our spouses?

I want some Scripture-based discussion here, please. And perhaps it's just a matter of accepting that once someone is expelled from the fellowship, that that's that.

mlqurgw · 03-05-2005, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loriborealis

I have a question regarding 1 Corinthians 5-
and maybe the only reason I have this question is because the subject is very close to my heart right now, though I do not expect anyone to soften this passage because of that.

1 Cor 5 tells us that if there is an immoral brother among you, he should be expelled from your fellowship. I perfectly agree. But it goes on to say,

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people– 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

Do you think that this means you should not associate with that person at all until they repent? Should we literally stop calling them, stop having coffee with them, stop eating with them? If so, then how is that showing the grace of God to them? It is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance, is it not?

Also, would this include family members? If your father gets kicked out of the church, are you to stop associating with him? Your husband? How would that correlate with Scripture when we are to honour our parents, and never leave our spouses?

I want some Scripture-based discussion here, please. And perhaps it's just a matter of accepting that once someone is expelled from the fellowship, that that's that.

I believe that Paul addressd the situation again
2Co 2:4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
2Co 2:5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
2Co 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
2Co 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2Co 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

The practice of church dicipline is to be done with extreme caution. It can do great harm to many. There are in the church both wheat and tares and we can't tell the difference. We are told to leave them and He will seperate them.
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

If we are to err in church dicipline then I would much rather err on the side of love.

Now to respond to whether we ought to shun those who the church has kicked out. I would say that if they continue in open rebellion and show no sign of repentance then break as many ties with them as it is possible to do without making a public spectacle of it. But be always ready to recieve them once again and continue to love them.

FilltheEarth · 03-05-2005, 11:54 AM

I've been through church discipline and been on both sides...i've been the one being cast out, and i've been in a church when they've case someone else out.

Anyway, you need to seriously consider your own actions in this. The point of church discipline is to set a standard and express to the sinning party, "What you are doing is NOT ok in the Lord's sight, and I can't let you keep hanging out with me thinking that if you kick HIM in the face, that I'm all cool with that."

If you are staying away from your friend out of some sort of legalistic "I'm not allowed to talk to you" then it won't help them or you for you to stay away from them. But if you truly see that what this person is doing is SIN and needs to be corrected, then understandably you might grieve the fact that you can't enjoy their friendship right now, but you will see it as something that this person NEEDS from you - they NEED to know that not just the others in the church, but you ALSO are really horrified at their lack of obedience to the Lord and that your relationship with them in Christ is based on HIM - and therefore you want them to feel you are also disappointed, and can't continue walking with them as a friend if they are going to pretend they are a christian and at the same time disregard how Jesus wants them to obey Him.

Love has many sides. There is love that is gentle and shows mercy, but there is also love that is tough and stops people from sin. Like when a parent spanks a kid, sometimes that is the most loving thing to do. When a church stops fellowshipping with someone so that hopefully they will feel ashamed and realize they're completely blowing it, they'll come and repent.

Now, there is a difference between someone who is claiming to follow Jesus as a christian but isn't living it, and someone who never really met Jesus and is living in sin. If they never really met Jesus but they are living in sin, then they aren't a hypocrite. Church discipline is designed to get rid of the hypocrites, but it's not supposed to get rid of those who don't know Jesus. If your friend really isn't a christian, then there is no reason to stop talking to him or her because you DO need to reach out to him/her with your kindness and bring them to Jesus. But the kindness that brings us to repentence has already been made known to a christian - they've already seen how kind Jesus is to them by dying for them on a cross and that His kindness is there to forgive them if they will repent even now - but they are rejecting his kindness and so God shows them another kindness - brothers and sisters that warn them of God's judgement and that won't put up with them pretending to be a christian but then completely sinning without restraint.

You know your friend, and you have to figure out if this is the case.

Heather

mlqurgw · 03-05-2005, 02:17 PM

Where are we told that the church is supposed to get rid of the hypocrites? Please show me one single believer who doesn't have sin in his/her life. Our responsibility is to love one another and forgive one another. That does not mean we are to condone sin.

loriborealis · 03-05-2005, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlqurgw

Where are we told that the church is supposed to get rid of the hypocrites? Please show me one single believer who doesn't have sin in his/her life. Our responsibility is to love one another and forgive one another. That does not mean we are to condone sin.

I think she means "hypocrite" as opposed to someone who isn't actually a believer at all. Paul says in 1 Cor 5 that he's not here to expel the non-believers from his company, for then he'd have to leave the world, but that believers living in unrepentent sin should be cast out. That's what she meant by hypocrites.

**Sean** · 03-05-2005, 03:29 PM

A few more verses to consider

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 (English Standard Version)

14If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Matthew 18:15-17 (English Standard Version)

If Your Brother Sins Against You
15"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

I think all the verses posted in this thread pretty clearly teach that if someone is living a sinful lifestyle, have been confronted and they will not repent, then you need to start breaking as many ties as possible. Not as an enemy but in love.

nolidad · 03-06-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Anyway, you need to seriously consider your own actions in this. The point of church discipline is to set a standard and express to the sinning party, "What you are doing is NOT ok in the Lord's sight, and I can't let you keep hanging out with me thinking that if you kick HIM in the face, that I'm all cool with that."

Your post is right on! Matthew 18 discipline is always supposed to be for ultimate reconsiliation. Sin is destructive. And when a beleiver chooses to live in grievous unconfessed unrepented sin, and after they have been appealed to by the elders/pastors and still refuse to repent-then yes they are to be shunned until the Holy Spirit applies the needed pressure to bring them to repentance.

It is a hard and very uncomfortable thing--but it is showing deep love to drive that person to forsake their sin. Pastors first and foremost are charged with guarding the flock God has put under their watchcare. They sahould not tolerate beleivers living in unrepentance and allow only so far for uinbeleivers who are attending to continue to stay if they do not forsake grievous sin. Example a couple starts attending a church and they are living togetrher and sexually active but not married. A pastor should love them encourage them, show them the love of Christ, but there comes a point if this couple does not wish to legitamize theor relationship-then the p[astor is bound to ask them to leave because sin corrupts.

It is not a question of being loving or not- it is a question of being loving and guarding what is yours to guard. Wopuld anyone allow friends of your kids to conme stay and let a guy and girl share a bedroom in your home? Why should we in our Christian meetinghome.

swordfish7 · 03-06-2005, 04:36 PM

Everywhere that “confrontation” and “discipline” are mentioned in the New Testament, the goal is always to restore that sinning one to righteous behavior, fellowship with God, and fellowship with the church. Sometimes that requires a period of forced “separation,” but NOT shunning.

The key phrase in Matthew 18 is: “let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” We treat gentiles and tax collectors not as enemies (though some did) but we treat them as Jesus treated them, people to be treated civilly so that they may be won to the Lord. We pray for such people, we witness to them, calling them to repent, even helping them in times of illness, but we do not shun them.

Husbands who are disobedient to the word: “In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. (1 Peter 3:1,2)

Shunning is never a biblical option. Putting someone out of fellowship means to not allow them to serve in the church and not treating them like a member in good standing. But every encounter is a call for them to repent, but politely, as one would do to an unbeliever.

Shunning is what Diotrephes did in 3 John. He put people out of the church just to get rid of them and silence them, not so that they would repent and return to fellowship.

Big difference, shunning and discipline.

doulos777 · 03-06-2005, 05:51 PM

While I agree that Paul's teachings are still true and applicable today. I also believe that we are missing an important point.

The early Christians were together every day and shared all of their belongings in a communal type setting. They did not just hang together for a couple of hours each Sunday.

In this setting, shunning a believer who was in open rebellion would send a very strong message. It would tell them quite strongly that they were either "in" or "out" without the formality of Church discipline and expulsion.

FilltheEarth · 03-06-2005, 11:07 PM

Yes, I agree with you. The "pain" of being put out of fellowship really only has any sort of effect on someone if there is a strong "relationship" with those in the body to begin with. If you only see each other on Wednesday and Sunday, it really isn't much of a relationship and while it might be sort of insulting to be excluded, it is just not the same as being told that the people you share life with day in and day out, sharing all your possessions, etc like the early church did, do not want your company until you repent.