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Unread 02-26-2005, 07:18 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by exo
I read 1 Corinthians 12, and no where does it state that X, Y, and Z gifts are greater than A, B, and C gifts.
Well, a lot of the context was actually putting tongues without interpretation down. So it could be that tongues is the only one that isn't a "greater" gifting.

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As I hope you read later, commanding individuals to do specific things is fine. But what and why are important as well.
It is important. I agree. But God didn't always give those along with the command. Point and case, "sacrifice your son, Isaac".

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But we have the Holy Spirit in us and are the Temple of God. Why does this not give us authority?
Oh, we have authority, plenty of it. I believe that we can all pray for healing and such. That we can all cast out demons. It's just that we might not particularly have the gift of healing (lol, some people call exorcism a gift... I laugh at that. I call it simply exercising our authority in Christ). A person with the gift of healing might be told who and when to pray for someone. Whereas you and me, we would just pray for it when the need comes up to us. A person with the gift of healing will pretty much see a result 100% of the time that they are operating in that gift because it is doing God's will. You and I will not see such a result because us praying for a person's healing isn't necessarily part of God's will. Now, in reference to the 100% thing. This does not mean that they will never "not" see a result. They aren't always operating in the gift. If they just decide to walk up to someone and pray for them without any prodding of the holy spirit, then it is no different from when you and I pray for them.

Now, in reference for desiring the best of the gifts, pray for healing. Note that when refering to the gift of healing, it actually says "Gifts" not gift. That might be something interesting to ponder.

and all that being said, we don't have the authority that you are refering to. We are not apostles and did not exist in the early area of the church. Don't you see what accepting "prophecy" into the canon has done? Mormons and Jehova witnesses. Both are built upon the foundation of false prophecy.

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Except that this is precisely what the prophets of the OT did.
No, not all. A lot of people may have written later about them. But they themselves did not. I agree that we should write prophesies now days down. But we should not canonize them. The Bible already contains the begining and the end. That book is closed and ready for use.

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I would think so. Just as the Bible is useful to us a millenium from when it happened.
It is just too dangerous for us to accept anything new. We could write the stuff down as something that isn't to be considered biblical. But not as scripture. What we have already works. Don't go fixing something that isn't broke.

Again, what are you getting at? are you seriously pressing for the canon to be reopened to additon? Or is there a point that we're supposed to reach?

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It will impact others just as the prophets of old did.
Not really, do you seriously think that every prophecy that they did is listed in the Bible? NO! just the ones that would affect us all.

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I said that the prophets of today in the way in which they prophecy are a) not correct 100% of the time and b) are essentially fortune-tellers. These are the ones that I have encountered. I didn't say they were all like that, nor was I making a conclusion about prophecy. I was saying that it applied to the vast (if not all) majority of 'prophets' today.

Again, remember I am a non-cessationist (which also, incidentally, includes prophecy).
Which I would agree with. But you should start using little words like, "Many, most, some, few" instead of indicating ALL.

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I am skeptical of these occurences, because they do not show that they are uniquely from the Christian God. Just as healing someone from a lifetime of blindness can confirm a miracle of God, so can a person speaking a real language.

I'm not trying to prove the Bible wrong at all. I am trying to make sense of it.
EVERY gift in our New Testament can be found in other religions' attempts to practice them. Why are you singling out tongues? Is healing not a real gift from God because other people try to practice it? i.e. shamans...

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Let me restate it for clarification: There is no reason to necessitate that we can/do speak in heavenly tongues. If I grant that they do exist (which I would concede is reasonable), there is no reason to necessitate that we speak in them. In fact, all of the references to tongues use the same word (that means languages), and the instance in which we see it in operation, people hear them speaking in foreign languages.

I would also challenge you with the fact that the word used is 'languages'. Therefore, wouldn't the thing that we are speaking represent a language of some kind? Even if the language didn't exist as an earthly, God is the maker of language, he speaks to us in our languages, I find it very hard to believe that angels are saying, "Shal lal lalaal alaaa".
LOL, there are of course false tongue talkers. Lol. Be very wary of them, you can tell them that they are falsely doing it and they'll just say that you're doing something ungodly in hindering them.

But as for heavenly languages, I would still venture that the words have fewer syllables than human ones. The point of language is to get an idea or concept across by using the fewest possible letters/symbols/words/motions. I would thing that whatever tongue the angels speak in would be a perfect language. That's why I am curious as to whether or not it was the language we all spoke prior to the tower of babel. You know, why wouldn't we have had the same language as the angels then?

But there is a danger in people who repeat things over and over and people who speak in such a way that it is obvious that they are faking it. I would venture however, that some of those times you are actually seeing something known as stammering lips. They may be speaking in tongues but can't quite get the words out.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isa 33:19 Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, [that thou canst] not understand.


Some people are quick to judge. But what they may not realise is that there is something that comes along with tongues that is not tongues. Understanding what stammering lips/tongues are could be very useful here. And could help you to understand better what may actually be going on in churches today. The verses above have probably widened your eyes in surprise a bit (it did me as the second reference was the first time I noticed it just now).

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So far, I have yet to be convinced that any of the non-earthly languages that are spoken are actually languages at all.

But it is interesting that you stated that the ones in public are definitely earthen. Does this occur with regularity at your church? I've only ever witnessed (pardon the term) gibberish in public that was most definitely not any sort of earthly language.
The ones in public have to earthen as there is not supposed to be interpretation there. To have interpretation would be no different from prophecy. And prophecy is not a sign for unbelievers. Note that by public I am refering to outside of the church setting. Speaking to unbelievers. Not to a group of believers in church.

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I can get on board with everything you say here.
good

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I am using that as a part of my argument because we should be holy (set apart) from other religions.
Just because other gifts say it doesn't mean that it isn't of God. The koran speaks so much about Jesus. More even than it does about Mahammud... (darn, how do you spell his name?). Yet in our religion we have Jesus too. Does that mean we should stop believing n Jesus?

Your arguement is in no ways a meaningful one. Just because other religions may mimick the things of ours doesn't mean that our practices are wrong. Do you see what I'm saying"?

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I am praying about the gifts on a regular basis. I am praying more for understanding right now (which is part of how God is ministering through you right now ). I have prayed at least once for the Spirit to give me the gifts if I am indeed being resistant, but I really don't feel the need to do this constantly, because I have the faith that he will do it when/if he wants.
Great bro. It is excellent that you are doing so. That's all that it says. To seek/desire them. It isn't a continual process. I desire a car. I am not seeking one with singlemindedness and yet there is no point that I don't "desire" one. So it is proper that you are praying for them but not ALWAYS fighting for the gifts. You should try praying for specific gifts. That might help.

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Seriously, I am not. I am challenging the way they are practiced and encouraged in Charistmatic churches today. I am doing my own searching for truth right now.

I am a non-cessationist because I have seen them used properly in the context of a sign to unbelievers.
Good!!! You should test them. Don't fall prey to a false prophet or anyone who would abuse/use the gifts of God improperly. Even if they really have the gift, but are misusing it, it'd be as bad as Moses hitting the stone when he was told to speak. The Bible specifically tells us to test all spirits for EXACTLY that reason .

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

It's awesome that you are naturally doing as the Bible tells us to do. So many people fall from not doing that.

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I said that I prayed in the Sprit. You said, "Then that means you spoke in tongues?" I gave verses that show that praying in the Spriit may not necessarily entail tongues. I was asking whether or not you agreed with that. Do the verses in Ephesians relate to speaking in tongues?

I do find a strange distinction between the wording of the different sets of verses though, and I'd like your thoughts. It says, "pray in my spirit" in Corinthians, but then later says "pray in the spirit". It also does not capitalize this. But the greek seems to be identical between Corinthians and Ephesians.
Well, it's important to know that these are two different letters. They could be speaking about the same thing. Emphasis on "could". But I doubt it as they are said in two different contexts. I am wary about saying the ones in ephesians is indeed tongues as that would help the arguement for tongues being a necessary sign of salvation. I absolutely abhor that belief as it says that everyone must speak in tongues when Paul clearly states that all do not (1 cor 12:30). Of course the greek being the same doesn't really impact this issue. If you only have one specific word that applies to two concepts, then you're going to use it both times. But in a different context. We know that the context in Corinthians is specifcally speaking about tongues. But ephesians offers no such context. I would instead argue that what ephesians is actually refering to is being in the spirit throughout your day. You know, walking according to your spirit and not according to the flesh. But verse 19 kinda makes me question that concept as it's wording seems so close. It is an interesting question indeed.

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But I thought that that comes from the Holy Spirit interceding for us with groans that cannot be uttered.

What Scriptural backing do you have that supports tongues being that which is in perfect accordance with God's will. I would think that the Holy Spirit could just as easily give me the English words.

Prayer can definitely be for one's own edification, but I'm still not sure why it is more powerful (or the Scriptural backing for such a case).
The Holy Spirit does indeed do that for us. But the gift of the spirit is also us praying for that. Again, back to the example of God not healing someone that we don't pray for them to be healed. It has a different outcome because we ACTUALLY pray for it.

As for it being God's will, it had better be, it is a gift directly from Him. It is the spirit speaking through us. It would be really... interesting, for it not to be something of God.

As for speaking in a tongue that you know, this does happen. Not always, but it does. But why bicker about the form of the gift God gives you if you understand it through interpretation anyways?

1Cr 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

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I agree with what you say here, but I do not see this in practice. I see that people just pray or sing in tongues without regard for an interpretation (they seem to think that they are on some higher spiritual plane when they are doing so).
Singing in tongues doesn't need to be interpreted. It isn't being spoken to us. Speaking in tongues is. As for being on some "higher plane", they are getting to use their gifts so I'd say that there should be a sense of elation in it. Should not the man who prays for someone that becomes healed rejoice?

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One important thing to note is that while we may not always get an interpretation while praying in tongues, Paul is saying to always seek one. I think that makes your statement, "The Bible does not, at any time, discourage praying in tongues privately without interpretation." false.
No, because it isn't saying that it is wrong to pray in tongues without interpretation. It is just saying that it is better for our own understanding that we have that interpretation. The prayer still completes what it is supposed to. We just gain an understanding of what it was completing.

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Gavin, my wife just arrived... so I'll have to cut this short... I'll try and get to the rest of this response sometime this weekend...
Alright man. You're an awesome brother in Christ and I am delighted to be able to have this conversation with you. Though now I am going to go learn some blacksmithing techniques so I won't be back till later today.

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Unread 02-26-2005, 07:21 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by mlqurgw
Gavin; Do you seriously think I don't know what the Greek word looks like? I was refering to the 1Cor. 12:8 verse and I think the context of 13:8 is reffering to the formentioned word of knowledge in 12:8. Otherwise it is unreasonable. if knowledge ceses then we become worse than idiots. Thats ridiculus. If you are going to continue to twist my words and try to make me look foolish or stupid I don't think I will continue this discussion.
Bro, I didn't know what you were talking about. I thought there was a mistake somewhere in what you were reading so I just gave all the info that I could. I don't know what you know in greek. Forgive me if it insulted you in any way . I seriously thought that I was helping you bro. I put a lot of time and effort into it as well. I would have done no such thing if I knew you would be offended.
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Unread 02-26-2005, 08:17 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by exo
Many of the Biblical prophecies and interactions with the Lord were for that person at that time. Why is it that your situation merits being out of the canon?
It is clear that there were prophecies and revelations from God not in the canon. The book of Iddo the seer is not in the canon. The Bible mentions Micaiah's previous prophecies, but they are not in the Bible. Jonah was a prophet before he gave that word to Ninevah, but we have very little of what he said. There are a lot of prophets whose prophecies were not recorded.

John heard thunderings he was not allowed to put into scripture. Paul (or some man) received revelations in the third heaven than he was not allowed to speak. Jesus said a lot of things that were not recorded.

So according to scripture, not all revelation is in the scriptures. So why would Heather's dream need to be in the Bible?
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Unread 02-26-2005, 12:37 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Lightknight
Bro, I didn't know what you were talking about. I thought there was a mistake somewhere in what you were reading so I just gave all the info that I could. I don't know what you know in greek. Forgive me if it insulted you in any way . I seriously thought that I was helping you bro. I put a lot of time and effort into it as well. I would have done no such thing if I knew you would be offended.
I can see you did put a lot of time and effort in your post. I do appreciate it. I apologize to you publically because I made it public. When I have more time I will PM you on our discussions.
Now I will say that my view of cessation is not based on the passages from 1Cor. I thought I made that clear in my original post. Non-cessanionists do seem to base their arguments on it though. I simply understand the whole context differently than you do apparently.
Again, I apologize for my manner and hope I haven't destroyed our freindship.
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Unread 02-26-2005, 12:39 PM   #125
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where do you take it from?
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Unread 02-26-2005, 12:42 PM   #126
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where do you take it from?
I don't know if you have read my original post but I take it from the use of miraculous gifts throughout the Scriptures. It seems to me that when a man was given these gifts it was as a stamp of approval and a sign that God was speaking through him.
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Unread 02-26-2005, 12:45 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by mlqurgw
I don't know if you have read my original post but I take it from the use of miraculous gifts throughout the Scriptures. It seems to me that when a man was given these gifts it was as a stamp of approval and a sign that God was speaking through him.

I read it, but I mean, I see no reason other than an ad-hoc reason to assume they ceased. Even trickier, if this is the case, how do we then know that it is not like the period from Malachi to John where there was no prophet for 400 years?
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Unread 02-26-2005, 12:53 PM   #128
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I read it, but I mean, I see no reason other than an ad-hoc reason to assume they ceased. Even trickier, if this is the case, how do we then know that it is not like the period from Malachi to John where there was no prophet for 400 years?
I do believe they were given for a special purpose. That is to show the Apostles and those to whom they were given were speaking by God's revelation as opposed to those such as the Pharisees and other so-called prophets. I do believe they were given to establish( in the sense of building up to a point of solidness or maturity, anchoring if you will) the early Church.
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Unread 02-26-2005, 12:54 PM   #129
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I do believe they were given for a special purpose. That is to show the Apostles and those to whom they were given were speaking by God's revelation as opposed to those such as the Pharisees and other so-called prophets. I do believe they were given to establish( in the sense of building up to a point of solidness or maturity, anchoring if you will) the early Church.

ok, but what is your position on the millenium. I have a question here that is only relevant if you are premil.
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Unread 02-26-2005, 12:56 PM   #130
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ok, but what is your position on the millenium. I have a question here that is only relevant if you are premil.
I really have no set position. I don't really view it as important. I guess I am basically aumill( sp?).
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Unread 02-26-2005, 12:59 PM   #131
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ok, but what is your position on the millenium. I have a question here that is only relevant if you are premil.
Now you've piqued my interest. Please ask your question.
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Unread 02-26-2005, 01:45 PM   #132
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Now you've piqued my interest. Please ask your question.

If Joel was inaugurated at Pentacost, and the young men will see visions and the old will dream dreams preceding to the coming terrible day of the Lord, does that not present a problem to your position. (A post or amil could I believe say this was past per peter's statement that this was fulfilled in their midst, but even so, it does not appear to fully fulfill the prophecies in Joel)
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Unread 02-26-2005, 02:00 PM   #133
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If Joel was inaugurated at Pentacost, and the young men will see visions and the old will dream dreams preceding to the coming terrible day of the Lord, does that not present a problem to your position. (A post or amil could I believe say this was past per peter's statement that this was fulfilled in their midst, but even so, it does not appear to fully fulfill the prophecies in Joel)
I really don't have an answer for you on that other than I take Peter at his word. I haven't really studied that one.
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Unread 02-26-2005, 02:06 PM   #134
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Exo are you just remarking on certain people or are you making a judgment of all glossolia?

I personally don't even know what I do, but it is very compelx and changes at different times. Only one of my friends has heard me use it (because I have no sense of novelty for it, only reverence and purpose) but he said it sounded like russian mixed with some latin. I wouldn't know, but like I said it changes now and then and it's always complex, I'm not sure if I'm speaking real languages and I guess I won't until I am in a situation where I feel it right to use practice them publically.

I didn't start as most people, I wasn't exposed to it prior and didn't ask and pray for it or anything like that. According to my mom it just started when I was young, like 3 or 4, and she says I was a much better tempered child afterwards. My first memory of it (though I suppose it points to use of it before the memory) was in sunday school when they introduced the concept to us kids, and I was like "oh you mean this?", so I guess I have a different experience with it than most.

I can't say I'm certain what it is, but I take it to be a gift, I'm sure God doesn't mind what my mouth is doing if my mind is focused on Him and I keep it to myself. In personal prayer I will switch between that and english, and the next day or so I find the stuff I was praying for are the specific concerns/message of my campus minister for the week. I know that doesn't prove anything (maybe I just have good discernment) but who knows?
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Unread 02-26-2005, 04:32 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by mlqurgw
Again, I apologize for my manner and hope I haven't destroyed our freindship.
Lol, if something as small as this could wreck a friendship, then I don't think anyone would have friends. Apology accepted. Please forgive me for anything I've done to upset you.
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