[Danny]

Originally Posted by slap_j

Of course those verses can't mean that, but no one claimed that.

Originally Posted by Bill

The problem I see, is that we have government taking a role that it was never designed to fill and does not do well.

I have seen countless other theonomists, conservatives and libertarians claim the exact same thing, though I'm not about to go looking up more examples just for the sake of this debate.

You claimed that they were a "staunch advocacy for Socialist government". Of course you reneged after I responded to your post.

The Bible advocates government aiding the poor. Socialism does this (no other modern political system but communism does, to my knowledge, but I'm willing to admit ignorance); raw Capitalism does not. That's all I was getting at.

I am a private citizen and I can do all of those things. Why must they be actions of a government?

Point conceded, but only because it's impossible to convince you of anything you don't want to hear, and I'm sick of debating it with you.

[Qingu]

Personally, I'd rather Christians not try to have my government act Biblically. Sure, this means that they won't support the government mandating socialist policies but it also means they won't support the equally Biblically valid Biblical policies of slavery, stoning atheists and adulteresses, and the occasional genocide.

On the other hand you can always argue that "you can go around stoning atheists privately, you don't need a government to do it," as Bill did with the Biblically mandated "give to the poor" policy.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Personally, I'd rather Christians not try to have my government act Biblically. Sure, this means that they won't support the government mandating socialist policies but it also means they won't support the equally Biblically valid Biblical policies of slavery, stoning atheists and adulteresses, and the occasional genocide.

On the other hand you can always argue that "you can go around stoning atheists privately, you don't need a government to do it," as Bill did with the Biblically mandated "give to the poor" policy.

However, even Jerry admits government has for the past 20 years robbed social security... As such, It really has proven incapable of handling the job. I am not saying what should be done as i do not claim to have a solution. All I am saying is the current state of fairs is merely a tax posing as a pension that we will not ever see.

I do not see any form of socialism in the OT. I see your ideals superimposed into the text, but not socialism. and for the record, i am not a theonomist. i adhere to the book of acts and galatians as the law goes, and oppose theonomy.

I do believe in personal compassion, but when I give, 100% goes to the poor. I am just saying that the current method is innefective, and as such should be revamped or abolished.

The system has not worked. Our government is just a wee touch too corrupt to be trustworthy with the money.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I do not see any form of socialism in the OT. I see your ideals superimposed into the text, but not socialism. and for the record, i am not a theonomist. i adhere to the book of acts and galatians as the law goes, and oppose theonomy.

There are countless exhortations to redistribute wealth to the poor. These are commands, not suggestions. And as Danny pointed out, God favors the kings who implement these commands in their system of government.

I do believe in personal compassion, but when I give, 100% goes to the poor. I am just saying that the current method is innefective, and as such should be revamped or abolished.

The system has not worked. Our government is just a wee touch too corrupt to be trustworthy with the money.

I am with you, though I replace "corrupt" with "Republican." I think the Republican party is this strange two-headed monster with one head eating the other. The base of its intellectual and economic power is a small class of relatively greedy laissez-faire elite. The other head are the uneducated, poor masses of the Christian right, the social conservatives, who are incredibly easy to manipulate and make up the majority of its voting block. I believe the elite wing of the Republican party is going to successfully manipulate the social conservatives into supporting its laissez-faire economic policies by couching them in "moral" terms: it's the American ideal to support yourself! Financial independence! Americans work hard! Social security is communism and communists are ATHEISTS! Thus, the social security money is spent, rather than saved, and of course, social security doesn't work.

Wow, I wrote all that and all the sudden I realized that I totally sound like a Marxist.

[Qingu]

I'd also like to say that I don't have a solution either. I think the democrats are going to respond to this nonsense by couching pro-social security in "moral" terms too: Jesus said give to the poor! Help your neighbor! Americans help each other! I happen to agree with many of these moral terms but I find the need for religiosity quite sickening and manipulative.

It's a circus, and there's no exit, except Canada, which is where I'm headed.

[JerryLove]

However, even Jerry admits government has for the past 20 years robbed social security... As such, It really has proven incapable of handling the job. I am not saying what should be done as i do not claim to have a solution. All I am saying is the current state of fairs is merely a tax posing as a pension that we will not ever see.

If they would stop taking our SS tax and putting it into other pojects, and pay us back (out of own taxes) the money they took , that would be an excellent start.

We start by making a balanced budget, paying back the money owed to SS, paying off the debt, then lowering taxes or increasing services. In the interem, I'd be all for streamlining the system.

I do not see any form of socialism in the OT. I see your ideals superimposed into the text, but not socialism. and for the record, i am not a theonomist. i adhere to the book of acts and galatians as the law goes, and oppose theonomy.

The government (God) commands you to leave grain in the field (controls production). That is the definition of socialism.

I do believe in personal compassion, but when I give, 100% goes to the poor.

Unless you personally hand poor people money... which is a system which causes a very uneven and unconsidered distribution, I doubt that highly.

I am just saying that the current method is innefective, and as such should be revamped or abolished.

It has flaws, many of which are not of SSA's making, and should be fixed. We agree there.

The system has not worked. Our government is just a wee touch too corrupt to be trustworthy with the money.

Applies to all taxes.

[jc-16]

the people should be in control

[Danny]

Originally Posted by jc-15

power to the poeple

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