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Unread 01-19-2005, 03:01 PM   #1
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How much Heresy is too much Heresy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Adams
If a person does not hold to the essential truths of the Faith, that is the Trinity, the universal depravity of humanity, the salvation of believers by grace alone through faith alone in the atoning sacrifice of Christ alone, and the coming judgment of all, then they're not really a Christian.
So this is a question that has been bouncing around my head for a long time, and Aaron finally made me make the thread. I have been wondering, how much heretical belief is too much? like Mormons for instace, they deny the Trinity and other such orthodox beliefs, So I am wondering that If all you have to do is believ, do they still go to heaven? Beacuse I have seen a few mormons (i only know a few anyways) that are all about God, but still in great scriptural error? So what do you guys think? Do you all think that Mormons or Christadelfians (sp?, I know one, who has just as much faith in Jesus, but still denying orthodox beliefs) go to heaven. offer scriptural responses please.

also, in regard to the previous,

Romans 10:9

9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


By the way, I am fairly ecumenical so leaning towards them being saved (though i am not too familiar with most sects so im not quite sure about all of em, but i go by discerning individual people instead)

Also would be interesting, throw in some opinion about Jahovah Witnesses, Shriners, etc....

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Unread 01-19-2005, 03:08 PM   #2
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I think any recognizable heresy is "too much heresy"

Perhaps you're blurring the issue by talking about the minimum requirements of salvation?

In other words, some Mormons get saved despite the errors of their doctrine, but that doesn't mean we should uphold Mormon doctrine as within the pale of orthodoxy.

It sounds like you want everyone who gets saved to have their associated doctrine to be allowed into the mainstream teaching of the church.

And that, my friend, would make us all, umm... dumb-dumbs!

Or at least confused.
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Unread 01-19-2005, 03:21 PM   #3
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The problem is your definition of Hersey, it will only be considered "heresey" if it goes against your church's mainstreme belief. For example, purgatory is not scritpureal but catholics believe in it, are they heritics? People don't seem to think so, but keep in mind a large marjourity of christians are catholic.
It seems to be a populatiry race as much as it is about true doctrine or not.

I"d say isntead of uing the laoded word hersey to judge if you are "christain or not" use the bible as the standard and really serach out the truth of scripture, for we know the bible is the ultimeate authority.
Mormons I don't think are Christian simpley because they blieve in more books than the bible and modern day propeths as well as practice polygamy.
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Unread 01-19-2005, 03:26 PM   #4
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Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and others don't believe in Christ as He's described by the Bible. They believe in a false christ that is depicted by their false gospels. This is why they aren't Christians. For example, the Mormon church believes that Jesus and Satan are brothers. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is "a god" not "the God" (see John 1:1 in the Jehovah's Witness bible).
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Unread 01-19-2005, 03:29 PM   #5
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Well, I the way I view things is:

I have enough to worry about with my own salvation and being a good chirstian and making sure my fruit is good fruit. I don't have time to worry whether others are saved. That does not mena that I don't spread the love and truth of God the Father and Lord Jesus. I say if it affects you directly then get rid of any heresy that directly affects you. Besides all you can do is just try to plant the seeds, some one else may water them, but only God makes them grow. So plant as many seeds as you can against wide spread heresy, and weed it from your personal garden daily.
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Unread 01-19-2005, 04:06 PM   #6
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First of all, I do not condone heresy, and I am not a mormon. So no i was not saying heresy was ok, or that a little heresy is ok. I was just wondering how much heresy was too much in the way of us understanding who God is, and how that affects our salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Glory
Mormons I don't think are Christian simpley because they blieve in more books than the bible and modern day propeths as well as practice polygamy.
Hmmm. thats an opinion. I would like scriptural proof, because your statement is flawed.

1) Mormons do not (as a group, individually some do) practice polygamy. that got changed because it was a "new revelation from God" when in all actuality Utah wanted to be a state.

2) What is wrong with modern day prophets? there are modern day Christian prophets that do not contradict the Word? Why is that a pre-requisite for somebody going to hell?

3) The Bible is something that is declared infallible by many church councils. Never theless, it does not mean that anything outside of the bible isnt infallible, but rather not "guarenteed" if you will. Not saying the book of Mormon is correct, or that Joseph Smith was even close too being right, but there are times when there is prophecy (from modern day prophets) that is of God, and thus the Word of God. So.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison
Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and others don't believe in Christ as He's described by the Bible. They believe in a false christ that is depicted by their false gospels. This is why they aren't Christians. For example, the Mormon church believes that Jesus and Satan are brothers. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is "a god" not "the God" (see John 1:1 in the Jehovah's Witness bible).
This is more towards what i meant with my original question, but Chris with this in mind where exactly do you draw the line?

What exactly do you define a false Christ to be? because many of us on this message board even, have a different idea of who God is, and what He represents, but all still follow Cannonized scripture.

Also How would you reconcile wether a "false Christ" (as per the Mormons) is damnable, if the said "false Christ" is still true to the Jesus Christ (the "real" one) in that He died for us and was ressurected, when compared to Rom 10:9 (in my previous post)

thanks for the thoughts guys
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Unread 01-19-2005, 04:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trogdor2323
Romans 10:9

9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


By the way, I am fairly ecumenical so leaning towards them being saved (though i am not too familiar with most sects so im not quite sure about all of em, but i go by discerning individual people instead)

Also would be interesting, throw in some opinion about Jahovah Witnesses, Shriners, etc....
Consider that a man who has never heard the Gospel is told the following story:

A man named Jesus lived in Jacksonville, Florida, in the 1950s. His father was an insurance salesman, and his mother was a seamstress. At the age of 22, he fell on an open dishwasher and was impaled by a fork through the heart. He was pronounced dead at the hospital, when his heart stopped. However, he was resuscitated and given a heart transplant, and lived another three days. During that time, he changed his name legally to Lord. The surgeon operating on him was named God.


Do you believe that the intention of Paul in Romans 10 is to say that the person who hears this story will be saved if he believes the story and says that "Jesus" is "Lord"? Obviously, the names "Jesus" and "God" must be applied to the proper things to make sense. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Branch Davidians, Unitarians, Moonies, Muslims, Jews, and others assign the words "God," "Lord," and "Jesus" to certain ideas, but those ideas are not related to what Paul mentions in Romans 10.
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Unread 01-19-2005, 04:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trogdor2323
This is more towards what i meant with my original question, but Chris with this in mind where exactly do you draw the line?

What exactly do you define a false Christ to be? because many of us on this message board even, have a different idea of who God is, and what He represents, but all still follow Cannonized scripture.

Also How would you reconcile wether a "false Christ" (as per the Mormons) is damnable, if the said "false Christ" is still true to the Jesus Christ (the "real" one) in that He died for us and was ressurected, when compared to Rom 10:9 (in my previous post)
I'd say that if you confess/possess faith in Christ as described in the Bible then you're set. I think that's where you draw the line. If your view of Christ can be based on the Bible, then your view of Christ is correct. If your view of Christ is based on any other book or if your view of Christ is contradictory to what Scripture says about Him, then I'd seriously consider your current eternal state. Of course there are going to be certain aspects of theology that people differ on, but still have Biblically founded theology.
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Unread 01-19-2005, 04:42 PM   #9
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Let me again reiterate that I only follow the bible and i am orthodox so no worries there. However a few friends of mine arent.


Ok, so to you Aaron and Chris:

You both have made you points very clear about falling in line with scripture (and Aaron your example was very exxagerated). I am wondering since you both referenced that your salvation was based the need to see God in basically a orthodox view, where do you draw the line at? would you still be saved if you denied the trinity? if yopu didnt believe in Satan? If you believe you need to be baptized to be saved? Obviously there are many levels of heresy, but at what point is it too much heresy, to not see God as he is, and be damned?

seriously just wondering on you opinions, because this could even apply to Nestorians, Pelagians, Arians, other such sects, that deny some basic orthodox teaching but are considered Christian
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Unread 01-19-2005, 05:16 PM   #10
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Any heresy is too much heresy. The only type of heresy that would endanger one's state of grace would be heresy concerning Jesus Christ. If you don't believe in Satan, then you don't believe in Satan. If you don't believe that Jesus is God, you have a serious problem. So the line for damnable heresy is drawn at the cross.
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Unread 01-19-2005, 05:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison
Any heresy is too much heresy. The only type of heresy that would endanger one's state of grace would be heresy concerning Jesus Christ. If you don't believe in Satan, then you don't believe in Satan. If you don't believe that Jesus is God, you have a serious problem. So the line for damnable heresy is drawn at the cross.
hmmm. interesting. any other thoughts?
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Unread 01-19-2005, 06:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trogdor2323
hmmm. interesting. any other thoughts?
Well, you're talking about some friends of yours...care to discuss specifically any heresies? It's difficult to give any more thoughts with such a broad question.
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Unread 01-19-2005, 07:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison
Well, you're talking about some friends of yours...care to discuss specifically any heresies? It's difficult to give any more thoughts with such a broad question.
one in particular is Christadelfianism. im pretty sure that how its spelled. a sect by far. no participation in politics or war. no satan. no trinity. need baptism of water to be saved. umm bunch of other stuff. but my friend in particular is still very seeking and she has great faith in my opinion, but very misguided.

but for me finding that devisive point of where one is damned is very difficult. particularly in this instance, because she believes in the ressurection. but would you disagree because she does not believe in the trinity?
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Unread 01-19-2005, 07:39 PM   #14
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heres a few links. its actually a lot worse than i thought...

http://www.christadelphian.org.uk/

http://www.carm.org/christadelphian.htm
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Unread 01-19-2005, 09:52 PM   #15
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well brandon, I know who you are talking about... being that she is my good friend as well... and I have realized when it is your friend, it's really hard to think what they are doing is wrong and especially a damnable offense. For me (because some have diff. views on this), anyone who does not claim that Jesus is God, that He died for the forgiveness of our sins, and that he resurected... all of those... then they are on a completely different track than Chrsitianity and blaspemous. The best thing we can do is be a good witness and do whatever we can to answer her questions... although she pretty much refuses to talk about her beliefs in fear of being made fun of or outcasted.
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