Go Back   Christian Guitar Forum > Deeper Issues > Theology
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Arcade Mark Forums Read

Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 01-12-2005, 09:21 AM   #1
guitarist
 
finchfeeder's Avatar
 

Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Wherever I go, there I am.
Posts: 4,042
paid
Is obedience rewarded?

Are there any rewards for obedience? If so, what are they?

__________________
The words that I write are only my opinion and each of you is most certainly entitled to have an opinion of your own.
ff
The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is His name.
Luke 1:49
He brought me to the banqueting house and His banner over me was love.
Song of Solomon 2:4

Self reminders:
Fellow Christian Acquaintance, in a congregational setting, with Pastor = BALT

Judgment - holding people accountable to a standard we did not create.
Judgmentalness - thinking ourselves morally superior because we have not committed the acts of others.
finchfeeder is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 01-12-2005, 09:58 AM   #2
Banned
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 4,766
Quote:
Are there any rewards for obedience? If so, what are they?
Everything we desire about Christianity!! Salavation is unconditional but the joy, peace, love, fellowship, intimacy, and rewrds (the 7 crowns) spoken of in Scripture are all conditioned based on our obedience.

Example. Your child will always be your child--that is genetic and unalterable. But how much they enjoy being your child is dependent on them obeying you. Do right all is well, do wrong, you still ove them, but spanking and gorunding and negative discip[lines ensue that are not fun things., Same with God--outr parenting is modeled after how God treats us as HIs children.
nolidad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-12-2005, 03:21 PM   #3
is called by God
 
Decency's Avatar
 

Joined: Jan 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 802
Send a message via AIM to Decency Send a message via MSN to Decency Send a message via Yahoo to Decency
Well, if you look throughout the Bible, you will find where God says if someone does say for instance lying, because I looked this up, God says they deserve to go to Hell.

"Honor your father and mother" if you read this verse, it goes on to say that those who do will inhabit a longer life than those who didn't obey their parents. There are both rewards for down here and up in heaven when we obey.
Decency is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-12-2005, 03:34 PM   #4
Servant of Servants
 
Fiat_Voluntas_T's Avatar
 

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 149
Send a message via AIM to Fiat_Voluntas_T
JMJ SHJ

I believe Romans 1:5 gives you a perfect answer.

It says "through Him we have received Grace and Apostleship for obedience to the faith..." So by being obedient to the Faith we will receive Grace and apostleship...You can't have Faith without being obedient.

Totus Tuus,
Andrew Joseph
__________________
"Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes."
-Pope John Paul II

Interested in learning about Catholicism: www.phatmass.com

St. Thomas Aquinas...Pray for us.
Fiat_Voluntas_T is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-12-2005, 04:46 PM   #5
awaiting beautiful feet
 
Blindman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2001
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by finchfeeder
Are there any rewards for obedience? If so, what are they?
There certainly should be: "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Heb 11:6)

Ultimately, the reason we obey God should be in order to be rewarded. We avoid sin not out of fear of punishment ("perfect love drives out fear" (1 Jn 4:18)), but because turning away from sin will bring us deeper and more lasting joy and satisfaction than that sin could ever offer.

God Himself _is_ our "very great reward" (Gen 15:1). Our reward isn't any health or wealth or prosperity that God could give to us; our reward isn't even the peace that comes from walking with God. Our reward is God Himself; in Him (not from Him) we have all the treasures we could ever desire.

I've found that it's only when I've got my eyes fixed on the reward that I have the strength to obey; it's only at the times when I am truly finding joy and delight in God that I am able to obey completely. Christianity involves obedience, but it is not dutiful obedience, but joyful obedience. Instead of saying, "God must be pleased with me because I obeyed Him, even though it was difficult," I should be led to say, "How greatly God has blessed me, to allow me to obey Him, to entice me with His sweetness until the world lost its savor!"

If you do the right thing out of a sense of duty or obligation, and then feel good about yourself because you made the right choice, that pride and self-righteousness becomes your reward (Mt 6:16). We're only living in Christian _humility_ when we so desire God that obedience becomes a joy.
__________________
"But there are two things I could not manage: neither to break the cord that holds me by the heart fixed, riveted, and sealed here, nor in silencing someone who speaks softly to me when I am alone." (Jean Valjean, in <i>Les Miserables</i> by Victor Hugo)
Blindman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-12-2005, 09:08 PM   #6
Banned
 
Lightknight's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Florida, yeah it's hot
Posts: 20,357
Send a message via AIM to Lightknight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat_Voluntas_T
JMJ SHJ

I believe Romans 1:5 gives you a perfect answer.

It says "through Him we have received Grace and Apostleship for obedience to the faith..." So by being obedient to the Faith we will receive Grace and apostleship...You can't have Faith without being obedient.

Totus Tuus,
Andrew Joseph
No. It doesn't lead to that. It says obedience TO the faith.

Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. Not obedience. If faith was gained through obedience then it would be by works that we are saved and not by grace.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Last edited by Lightknight; 01-12-2005 at 09:23 PM.
Lightknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-13-2005, 12:27 AM   #7
Gone Golfing
 
mlqurgw's Avatar
 

Joined: Sep 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,539
Quote:
Blindman said: Ultimately, the reason we obey God should be in order to be rewarded.
I would have to respectfully disagree. I seek to obey Him because I love Him. If I do it for reward, even though what you said concerning God being our reward is right on, we do it so that we can get something. Love works because it loves. I don't do things for my wife so I can be rewarded by her I do them because I love her.
Quote:
If you do the right thing out of a sense of duty or obligation, and then feel good about yourself because you made the right choice, that pride and self-righteousness becomes your reward (Mt 6:16).
Amen
__________________
If you want someone to find Christ take them to where He has promised to be. Where two or three are gathered in His name.
mlqurgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-13-2005, 06:12 PM   #8
awaiting beautiful feet
 
Blindman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2001
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlqurgw
Love works because it loves. I don't do things for my wife so I can be rewarded by her I do them because I love her.
Yes, but don't you show love to her by enjoying and delighting in her? Isn't it, in some sense, the greatest gift you can give her when you make it clear to her that you delight in her beauty and personality and so on? To receive from someone else gladly and gratefully _is_ a gift to them.

I think the same holds true with God. When do you think you are bringing the most glory to God? Isn't it when you're using the gifts He has given you, or telling others about Him - aren't the times when God is most glorified in you also the times that you enjoy Him the most? And isn't saying that I have found joy and peace and life in Christ a better witness than simply saying that I think God deserves to be obeyed?

God cares more about giving to us than receiving anything from us. That's a pattern you see throughout Scripture (Jn 13:6-8; 1 Chr 17:4, 10b; Lk 10:38-42). We aren't living in obedience, after all, unless we are following the command to "rejoice in the Lord always" (Phil 4:4).
__________________
"But there are two things I could not manage: neither to break the cord that holds me by the heart fixed, riveted, and sealed here, nor in silencing someone who speaks softly to me when I am alone." (Jean Valjean, in <i>Les Miserables</i> by Victor Hugo)
Blindman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-13-2005, 07:43 PM   #9
Servant of Servants
 
Fiat_Voluntas_T's Avatar
 

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 149
Send a message via AIM to Fiat_Voluntas_T
JMJ - SHJ

What was the first sin of man-kind??? (Disobedience to God)

Disobedience caused the Fall.

Totus Tuus,
Andrew Joseph

PS -
Quote:
Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. Not obedience. If faith was gained through obedience then it would be by works that we are saved and not by grace.
Right...but, is it ok to just believe and not doing anything...If you really had Faith and believed you would be obedient to the Gospel...Being obedient to the Gospel is being Obedient to Christ's Teaching...Being obedient to Christ's Teaching is not only believing in what He SAYS...but also DOING what he tells us to DO! Christ's wants us to LIVE the Gospel, and not just have faith in it.
__________________
"Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes."
-Pope John Paul II

Interested in learning about Catholicism: www.phatmass.com

St. Thomas Aquinas...Pray for us.
Fiat_Voluntas_T is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-13-2005, 09:43 PM   #10
Banned
 
Lightknight's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Florida, yeah it's hot
Posts: 20,357
Send a message via AIM to Lightknight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat_Voluntas_T
Right...but, is it ok to just believe and not doing anything...If you really had Faith and believed you would be obedient to the Gospel...Being obedient to the Gospel is being Obedient to Christ's Teaching...Being obedient to Christ's Teaching is not only believing in what He SAYS...but also DOING what he tells us to DO! Christ's wants us to LIVE the Gospel, and not just have faith in it.
Absolutely! But this is not what you said at first. But of course we aren't meant to just have faith and let that be it.

Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Lightknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-13-2005, 10:21 PM   #11
awaiting beautiful feet
 
Blindman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2001
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat_Voluntas_T
Right...but, is it ok to just believe and not doing anything...If you really had Faith and believed you would be obedient to the Gospel...
Correct. If we truly have faith in Christ, the result will be joyful obedience to His will. However, the opposite is not true: someone can, externally, act like a Christian without being one. I should know; I faked it for years, without even knowing that I was faking it, with nothing but a vague sense that the intimacy others had with God was something I was missing.

Far better to live in external disobedience, than to follow the Law with an untransformed heart; far better to reject the Gospel outright than to harder your heart by hearing it preached and claiming to believe it while still living as a stranger to God; far better, indeed, to fall into any other sin than the sin of self-righteous religious pride.

I've known so many people, myself included, who convince themselves that God loves them more because they obey the Law; that somehow they've done something to deserve God's grace; that they stand before God on their own merit. That sort of talk about obedience doesn't come from Christian humility, but from pride. God does not _need_ our obedience; we are worth no more in His eyes when we obey, then when we are disobedient. The biggest stumbling stone in the way of our recieving God's grace is our desire to believe that we deserve it.

Don't forget that Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous. No one with any reason to call himself or herself obedient has any chance of salvation; it is only after we despair of ever achieving obedience on our own that we can hope for the gift of grace.
__________________
"But there are two things I could not manage: neither to break the cord that holds me by the heart fixed, riveted, and sealed here, nor in silencing someone who speaks softly to me when I am alone." (Jean Valjean, in <i>Les Miserables</i> by Victor Hugo)
Blindman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-13-2005, 11:34 PM   #12
Gone Golfing
 
mlqurgw's Avatar
 

Joined: Sep 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindman
Yes, but don't you show love to her by enjoying and delighting in her? Isn't it, in some sense, the greatest gift you can give her when you make it clear to her that you delight in her beauty and personality and so on? To receive from someone else gladly and gratefully _is_ a gift to them.

I think the same holds true with God. When do you think you are bringing the most glory to God? Isn't it when you're using the gifts He has given you, or telling others about Him - aren't the times when God is most glorified in you also the times that you enjoy Him the most? And isn't saying that I have found joy and peace and life in Christ a better witness than simply saying that I think God deserves to be obeyed?

God cares more about giving to us than receiving anything from us. That's a pattern you see throughout Scripture (Jn 13:6-8; 1 Chr 17:4, 10b; Lk 10:38-42). We aren't living in obedience, after all, unless we are following the command to "rejoice in the Lord always" (Phil 4:4).
I wouldn't disagree with any thing I have read that you have written in any thread except that one statement. My only concern was that it gives the impression that we obey to get something from God and IMHO that is not a proper motive. I do enjoy God when I seek to glorify Him. And the more I seek the more I enjoy. But my motive is not to gain from God but simply because I love Him and want to do what He desires. Does that make sense?
__________________
If you want someone to find Christ take them to where He has promised to be. Where two or three are gathered in His name.
mlqurgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-14-2005, 08:45 AM   #13
guitarist
 
finchfeeder's Avatar
 

Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Wherever I go, there I am.
Posts: 4,042
paid
I agree that love for God is the right motive to obey Him. What does that have to do with any reward?

My problem is: If I love God and He tells me to love my enemy then what's in it for me? Nothing but heartache.

There is something in it for God, a nasty person converted. There is something in it for the nasty person, God and heaven. What's in it for me? Why should I obey?

My obedience to God is hard in this because it seems like He does not love me, as the nasty person does not love me. Seems like God agrees with the nasty person. I can't find a motive to obey. Does God offer me anything besides my enemy picking on me for my loving God and my enemy?

I guess I am Jonah. I am the prodigal son's older brother. I am the worker who worked all day long for the same wage as the person hired at the end of the day. Only, God does not tell us the part about how the person He hires at the end of the day spent all day throwing stones at us, tipping over our baskets, stealing our grapes and tools....

My pastor says we get to have God for a longer period of time than the others. I guess that is my reward??? It's hard to love Him if He loves my enemy more than me.

Somehow, I have got to come up with open eyed, loyal, unswerving, obedient devotion to God. The kind that says: I know my destination is the cross and I am going anyway. I keep thinking that all that I will ever get is to be in the dungeon like John the Baptist. Why should I do it?

I am in Gethsemame.

Maybe if I could find some kind of positive fruit I could go along with God on this. All I see is torture from my enemy. One time, I offered my suffering to God, He told me to reinvest it in the earth!!! My suffering? Waste it on those people??? Yep. That's His idea. I can't seem to win. Maybe I should play the game to lose.

Blindman is right. I could fake it. I could pretend through gritted teeth to love my enemy but God and I would know my heart.

Seems like God could at least give me a little extra pat on the back or something. Is there anything to give me that hope? Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps there is a flaw in my logic?
__________________
The words that I write are only my opinion and each of you is most certainly entitled to have an opinion of your own.
ff
The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is His name.
Luke 1:49
He brought me to the banqueting house and His banner over me was love.
Song of Solomon 2:4

Self reminders:
Fellow Christian Acquaintance, in a congregational setting, with Pastor = BALT

Judgment - holding people accountable to a standard we did not create.
Judgmentalness - thinking ourselves morally superior because we have not committed the acts of others.
finchfeeder is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-14-2005, 10:27 AM   #14
Servant of Servants
 
Fiat_Voluntas_T's Avatar
 

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 149
Send a message via AIM to Fiat_Voluntas_T
JMJ - SHJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightknight
Absolutely! But this is not what you said at first. But of course we aren't meant to just have faith and let that be it.

Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
So you agree with me and Holy Scripture that Faith without works is dead...AND that Works without Faith are futile. This is what Catholics believe about this...you just agreed with me...but then there are many people on this forum who say, "All Catholics believe is that Works bring forth Salvation." And we all know that you can NOT have Faith without Works, and your Works are useless WITHOUT Faith.
(Just trying to clear up misunderstanding about Catholic Teaching).

Totus Tuus,
Andrew Joseph
__________________
"Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes."
-Pope John Paul II

Interested in learning about Catholicism: www.phatmass.com

St. Thomas Aquinas...Pray for us.
Fiat_Voluntas_T is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-14-2005, 10:33 AM   #15
Gone Golfing
 
mlqurgw's Avatar
 

Joined: Sep 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,539
Quote:
Originally Posted by finchfeeder
I agree that love for God is the right motive to obey Him. What does that have to do with any reward?

My problem is: If I love God and He tells me to love my enemy then what's in it for me? Nothing but heartache.

There is something in it for God, a nasty person converted. There is something in it for the nasty person, God and heaven. What's in it for me? Why should I obey?

My obedience to God is hard in this because it seems like He does not love me, as the nasty person does not love me. Seems like God agrees with the nasty person. I can't find a motive to obey. Does God offer me anything besides my enemy picking on me for my loving God and my enemy?

I guess I am Jonah. I am the prodigal son's older brother. I am the worker who worked all day long for the same wage as the person hired at the end of the day. Only, God does not tell us the part about how the person He hires at the end of the day spent all day throwing stones at us, tipping over our baskets, stealing our grapes and tools....

My pastor says we get to have God for a longer period of time than the others. I guess that is my reward??? It's hard to love Him if He loves my enemy more than me.

Somehow, I have got to come up with open eyed, loyal, unswerving, obedient devotion to God. The kind that says: I know my destination is the cross and I am going anyway. I keep thinking that all that I will ever get is to be in the dungeon like John the Baptist. Why should I do it?

I am in Gethsemame.

Maybe if I could find some kind of positive fruit I could go along with God on this. All I see is torture from my enemy. One time, I offered my suffering to God, He told me to reinvest it in the earth!!! My suffering? Waste it on those people??? Yep. That's His idea. I can't seem to win. Maybe I should play the game to lose.

Blindman is right. I could fake it. I could pretend through gritted teeth to love my enemy but God and I would know my heart.

Seems like God could at least give me a little extra pat on the back or something. Is there anything to give me that hope? Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps there is a flaw in my logic?
I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. I do not want to put words in your mouth but it seems to me you're thinking about having a whole lifetime of sacrifice of yourself and that seems like too long. It isn't as long as you think. I am middle age and I can tell you life is but a vapor, very short. Time passes so quickly that you don't even realize that the years are gone. Also self-sacrifice is rewarding in it's self. Just knowing that you have done what you are supposed to and it makes others better is one of the most rewarding things in life. When we quit looking at and for ourselves and begin to look at and for others we are truly at peace with the world and in ourselves. It is rewarding to love your enemies if for no other reason than it heaps coals of fire on their head. As for heaven , all believers get exactly the same thing: All that Christ has earned for us which is all that heaven is.
__________________
If you want someone to find Christ take them to where He has promised to be. Where two or three are gathered in His name.
mlqurgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:57 AM.


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2