[MoreHimLessMe]

Greetings All,

I had a question about modes that has been confusing me a little bit.

Suppose I have a song in the key of G. I know I can use the G Ionian scale (G A B C D E F# G) to improvise on this song, and it sounds fine. I can also use an E Aeolian minor scale (E F# G A B C D E), and it'll sound fine, as well as a subset of this scale, the E minor pentatonic scale.

Now I remember posting somewhere in this forum that if it sounds weird to improvise a song in Ionian, they should try to use Mixolydian or Lydian. But C Lydian and D Mixolydian have the same notes as the G Ionian (C D E F# G A B C), so I see no difference from G Ionian.

So instead, I tried improvising with this song with G Mixolydian (G A B C D E F G) and G Lydian (G A B C# D E F# G) also, and both of them sounded kind of weird. The sharpened 4th note on the Lydian and the lowered 7th on the Mixolydian didn't sound very good to my ears.

Am I just tone deaf? Or is there something wrong in my theory?

[Kevin071586]

The C Lydian and D Mixolydian are the correct scales to try if the G Ionian doesn't sound right. They do have the exact same notes, you're right. However, the "target notes" or "root notes" are different.

Let me explain. The G Ionian scale is made up of the notes G A B C D E F# G
The D Mixolydian scale is made up of the notes D E F# G A B C D.

If you examine both of these scales, you'll find that the only difference between the two is that the 7th degree of the scale is lowered by one half step (and thus a minor seventh interval (i think)).

Let me try to illustrate this differently:

D IONIAN SCALE: D E F# G A B C# D
D MIXOLYDIAN SCALE: D E F# G A B C D

Notice how the 7th degree of the scale (the C) is one halfstep lower in the mixolydian scale than it is in the Ionian scale?

Let that sink in for a minute. Now play those scales and pay particular attention to what notes you start and end on. The Ionian scale will probably sound fine to you. The Mixolydian scale, you'll probably WANT to play the seventh note as a C# ... BUT DON'T GIVE IN TO TEMPTATION! Play it as a C, and you'll hear the tonal difference.

THAT is the difference between the two. Now when you're playing and using these, focus on "playing around" the target note which is D. Try to start and end with that note, and focus the melody around it.

Good luck

-Kevin

[Nate]

Originally Posted by MoreHimLessMe

Suppose I have a song in the key of G. I know I can use the G Ionian scale (G A B C D E F# G) to improvise on this song, and it sounds fine. I can also use an E Aeolian minor scale (E F# G A B C D E), and it'll sound fine, as well as a subset of this scale, the E minor pentatonic scale.

You can use any notes from the key of G in any combination that you want that is appropriate to the chord progression of your song. You shouldn't think in terms of a strict scale pattern that you try to follow. You should think, instead, in terms of the key and the harmonic relationships present in the chord progression of the song.

Now I remember posting somewhere in this forum that if it sounds weird to improvise a song in Ionian, they should try to use Mixolydian or Lydian.

Randomly choosing a mode and finding a decent-sounding one simply by trial-and-error is rarely a good manner for creating a good improvisation.

But C Lydian and D Mixolydian have the same notes as the G Ionian (C D E F# G A B C), so I see no difference from G Ionian.

Usage is the difference. You would, however, never really find an occasion to actually use C Lydian or D Mixolydian in a piece that is authentically in the key of G major. C Lydian and D Mixolydian would be used in the respective "keys" of C Lydian and D Mixolydian.

So instead, I tried improvising with this song with G Mixolydian (G A B C D E F G) and G Lydian (G A B C# D E F# G) also, and both of them sounded kind of weird. The sharpened 4th note on the Lydian and the lowered 7th on the Mixolydian didn't sound very good to my ears.

This is probably because they clashed terribly with your chord progression.

If you're in the key of G, but have a few interesting secondary dominants (V/IV or V/V come to mind) thrown into your chord progression, you may very well find occasion to use G Lydian or G Mixolydian. G Lydian would sound great over a long V/V chord in the key of G, because the "raised 4th" would be the leading tone in the V/V chord (however, you should note that this isn't really G Lydian at all because it's not being used as a Lydian scale; it's simply G major with a raised 4th, which is aurally the same as G Lydian, but not technically or theoretically the same, at least not in all cases). G Mixolydian would sound great over an extended V/IV chord, because the "lowered 7th" would make for a nice dominant 7 tonality on the V/IV chord, which would strengthen the tonicization of IV (again, however, this isn't really G Mixolydian at all, but simply G with a "lowered 7th").

You really should think of modes in this way:

Modes are scales, and can, therefore, be "key-defining." Yes, they are related to other more commonly used scales, but they should be treated as separate and individual musical entities. Just like C and Am are related, but quite separate, so C and D Dorian are related, yet separate. Furthermore, with the exception of making learning the scales easier, you should never think of modes as being related to the major/minor scale with the same letter name (i.e. never again say that G Mixolydian is the same as G major with a lowered 7th). Although parallel relationships such as this can be important in music, they are rarely more important (and never as common) as the more simple relationships. G Mixolydian is related to C Major, and should be thought of that way as much as possible. I realize that it's easier to play it when you think of it as G with a "flat 7th," but that will lead you to an incorrect understanding, and, thus, an incorrect application of modes.

Hope that all made at least some sense.

In His love,
Nate

[MoreHimLessMe]

Thanks guys. That cleared up a lot for me. I just need one more clarification.

Originally Posted by Nate

Usage is the difference. You would, however, never really find an occasion to actually use C Lydian or D Mixolydian in a piece that is authentically in the key of G major. C Lydian and D Mixolydian would be used in the respective "keys" of C Lydian and D Mixolydian.

OK, well, Kevin said that if G Ionian doesn't work, it's fine to try C Lydian and D Mixolydian.

But in the above quote, Nate says that you wouldn't find an occasion to use C Lydian or D Mixolydian "authentically" in the key of G major. When I think of a key in G major, I just look for certain chords in the chord progression (G(I), C(IV), D(V), Em etc.). What does "authentically" in G major mean? Also... what kind of common chord progressions can I respect from songs in the keys of C Lydian or D Mixolydian? If you can, examples of songs in these various "keys" would be helpful.

Thanks so much again for clearing a lot of this up.

[Kevin071586]

Why would it be confusing to say that G Mixolydian is the same as G Ionian with a lowered 7th? It is true. I'm no modal guru, so my question is sincere and most definitely not intended to defend my own post.

It seems that it shouldn't be considered to be related to C Major, either, since technically you shouldn't be playing the C Major scale over a Mixolydian progression, anyways. So what gives? What is the reasoning behind that.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Kevin071586

Why would it be confusing to say that G Mixolydian is the same as G Ionian with a lowered 7th?

Because, although G Ionian with a lowered 7th sounds exactly like G Mixolydian, G Mixolydian is not contrived by lowering the 7th scale degree of G Ionian, but, instead, by playing C major starting and ending on G (or, even more precisely, by playing the pattern W-W-H-W-W-H-W starting and ending on G).

I'll answer the question more clearly (and address the other questions) later today.

In His love,
Nate

[Kevin071586]

Technically it's not even correct to say that it is derived from the C scale, though, either. It, just like my naming convention, is only a convenient method to describe the modes.

Modes, are their own identity of whole and half steps to create a scale. It just so happens that if you "shift the steps to the right or left" that you get the next mode. In reality, it would be best to just name the scale and not associate it with any scale ... but if you do I don't see why it would be better or worse to use one or another naming convention.

-Kevin

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Kevin071586

Technically it's not even correct to say that it is derived from the C scale, though, either.

Indeed. I think I made a post concerning the development of the modal system a month or so ago. In any event, that's what I was coming back to clarify.

I don't see why it would be better or worse to use one or another naming convention.

It's better to think of modes in terms of their related major scale (i.e. G Mixolydian to C Major) than of their parallel major scale (i.e. G Mixolydian to G Major), because the former more accurately represents the concept of modality and is closer to the actual way that modes were first introduced/used in music.

Let me see if I can dig up the post I mentioned earlier.

In His love,
Nate

[Nate]

Originally Posted by MoreHimLessMe

What does "authentically" in G major mean?

At its most basic level, it means that the song cadences (read: ends) on G.

Also... what kind of common chord progressions can I respect from songs in the keys of C Lydian or D Mixolydian? If you can, examples of songs in these various "keys" would be helpful.

It's very rare in popular music to find any examples of modality at all (even examples that are only "somewhat" in a mode other than Ionian or Aeolian), and even harder to find examples of songs that are actually and fully in a mode other than the common major / minor modes. I'll try to see if I can come up with any good examples of Lydian or Mixolydian, but it might take some time.

The one modal example that I do know off-hand is that of the old folk hymn "What Wondrous Love Is This?" The song is in the Dorian mode. Listen to a good recording of it (in the post I mentioned earlier, I think that I even linked to a recording of this song), and you should be able to hear the distinctive nature of Dorian mode fairly easily. Something about the cadences at the end of phrases / verses and the general mood of the piece should feel "weird" to you. If you have a hymnal handy, you might look up the hymn in it just so that you can see what Dorian looks like on paper. You'll probably see the key signature for C Major, but see what looks like a D minor chord beginning and ending the piece.

In His love,
Nate

[MoreHimLessMe]

Ahh... ok. So if I'm playing electric guitar for a worship team that plays a lot of popular music, I really wouldn't have much occasion to use those other modes besides Ionian and Aeolian, right?

I'll try to look through the old posts in the forum to see if I can find your old post, but if you happen to find it, it would be cool if you could post it.

Anyways, thanks for all the help. I'll try to get a hold of the song that you mentioned. Being a guy that listens mostly to only popular Christian music, I'm curious as to how songs in other modes sound like.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by MoreHimLessMe

So if I'm playing electric guitar for a worship team that plays a lot of popular music, I really wouldn't have much occasion to use those other modes besides Ionian and Aeolian, right?

Yes, basically. That's not to say it'll never happen, because some songs have sections or a few measures that are close to being in a different mode, but you have to be on the lookout for these moments... and you can't just play the other modes whenever you feel like it.

Another song that came to mind (that you might be more familiar with) is "You're Worthy Of My Praise" (AKA "I Will Give You All My Worship"). I'm not sure how you are used to playing this song, but my band plays it in the key of G with the progression G-F-C-G in the verse. That progression is not in G Major/Ionian (as the chorus of the song is), however, but in G Mixolydian. If you put all the notes of G-F-C-G together, you get G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G, which is the G Mixolydian mode. This would be an occasion where you could use G Mixolydian in a modern praise song... in fact, to play any other mode would pretty much be incorrect. You'd go back to G Major/Ionian for the chorus, though.

Are you starting to see how this works?

but if you happen to find it, it would be cool if you could post it.

I looked for it, but I haven't found it yet. I'll do a more exhaustive search later today and then post a link to it.

Anyways, thanks for all the help. I'll try to get a hold of the song that you mentioned. Being a guy that listens mostly to only popular Christian music, I'm curious as to how songs in other modes sound like.

Go here. You have to download a plugin of some sort, but after you do, you can see and hear a nice arrangement of What Wondrous Love Is This.

In His love,
Nate

[Kevin071586]

I've been working with the Mixolydian mode lately, and i'm curious, I understand that Dominant 7th chords go with Mixolydian, but as far as progressions I'm not sure I understand the rules.

If I had the following progression:

D - A7 - C - Em, it would be in D Major right?

I guess what throws me off is the A7, but A is also the 5th of the D major scale, so lowering playing a dominant chord from the 5th of the scale wouldn't change a thing right? Because the V is the dominant.. and the IV is the semi-dominant. If i'm right here, and i'm really putting myself out there because i'm not really sure of all of this, what other chord type could you make the IV?

-Kevin

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Kevin071586

and i'm curious, Understand that Dominant 7th chords go with Mixolydian, but as far as progressions I'm not sure I understand the rules.

I'm not quite sure I understand anything you just said.

If I had the following progression:

D - A7 - C - Em, it would be in D Major right?

Yikes... I guess D major would be a semi-suitable identification. That's a really insane chord progression, though. Wow. Crazy. If I had to personally assign a key to that (which would be crazy-hard to do), I suppose it would have to be D Mixolydian or a strange messed-up version of G major.

The A7-C-Em is what's really throwing me off here. First, the 7 in the A7 doesn't resolve, then, the non-resolution to C also doesn't resolve and continues to be glaringly dissonant (even though it's consonant in the context of the C chord by itself), non-resolving again to the Em. It's like... the E-G relationship stays through those three chords for almost so reason. If you're in any key resembling D, you'd expect one or both of those notes to resolve fairly quickly. If you're in G, you'd expect the E to resolve under the G.

Is this supposed to be a real chord progression, or just a case-study for the Mixolydian mode?

I guess what throws me off is the A7, but A is also the 5th of the D major scale, so lowering playing a dominant chord from the 5th of the scale wouldn't change a thing right?

I am so lost now. Sorry. I have no clue what you are talking about here.

Because the V is the dominant.. and the IV is the semi-dominant. If i'm right here, and i'm really putting myself out there because i'm not really sure of all of this, what other chord type could you make the IV?

Again... lost.



Ok... it seems like some of your difficulty is coming with the fact that you seem to be trying to select one particular mode for each chord in your progression? Is that even close to what you're trying to do here? The mode you use should encompass at least one section of your song, if not the whole song. You shouldn't be playing along in D major and then bust out with some crazy Mixolydian mode... unless you have a VERY good reason to do so. You don't have to play a Mixolydian scale over a Dominant chord... nor should you feel that it would be appropriate to do so. Modes, like any scales, are key-defining, and will usually encompass a number of chords in the context of the song you're playing. In your progression above, you should probably play either D Mixolydian or G Major throughout.

I'm not really sure what else to say. I'm still confused. Hehe.

In His love,
Nate

[Kevin071586]

Eh, i'd love to blame it on being tired but i'm sure it's 90% confusion.

Anyways, real chord progression... Foo Fighters - Times Like These (acoustic version)

But it works.. unless i'm hearing it entirely wrong.. but i'm about 99% sure that's what it is. What's wacky is that it starts in D, but ends in C i think.

Let me try to clarify the part of my post that just utterly confused you..

In the D major scale, we have D E F# G A B C#.

I = D <---- tonic
ii = Em
iii = F#m
IV = G <---- sub-dominant
V = A <---- dominant
vi = B
viiº = C#

So, since the V is considered the "dominant" one, I also assumed that it being a dominant chord (A7) as opposed to a major triad would be acceptable. After all, the notes of A7 are A, E, G, C .... all of which belong in the D scale minus the C. *shrug* ..

Looking at it again, maybe it would make more sense to say it is in the key of G, which is slightly confusing still since the tonic isn't started or ended on, or even played for that matter (as a chord).

*Edit* Would saying it is in Em make more sense? I think maybe so ...

-Kevin

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Kevin071586

Anyways, real chord progression... Foo Fighters - Times Like These (acoustic version)

Ah. Ok.

I just looked up that song on a few tab archives... and they had quite a few different ideas concerning what the actual progression was.

I just realized, however, that what I said about the progression you posted was pretty much entirely wrong. I mistakenly included a C in the A7 chord when it should have been a C#. With the progression you've given us (D-A7-C-Em), there's not really much explaining that can be done.

The most common (and highest rated) progression I found in the tab archives I searched was D-Am-C-Em, which makes more sense to me... and is more easily explained. That progression is actually in D Mixolydian (and/or G Major, I suppose, depending on how you look at it)... unlike the progression you gave earlier, despite what I may have said about it last night. Haha.

Anyway... moving on.

Let me try to clarify the part of my post that just utterly confused you..

In the D major scale, we have D E F# G A B C#.

I = D <---- tonic
ii = Em
iii = F#m
IV = G <---- sub-dominant
V = A <---- dominant
vi = B
viiº = C#

So, since the V is considered the "dominant" one, I also assumed that it being a dominant chord (A7) as opposed to a major triad would be acceptable.

Only in some cases would the added seventh be acceptable. Generally, you only add the seventh when you're moving directly from the dominant to the tonic (or, possibly, the submediant: vi).

After all, the notes of A7 are A, E, G, C .... all of which belong in the D scale minus the C.

Yeah, see... this is where I got messed up earlier. The notes of A7 are A-C#-E-G. I made the same mistake you just did, by including C instead of C#. I think it was because I was treating the C as a seventh because it was the seventh scale degree of D Mixolydian, and I was working with the assumption that we were in the Mixolydian mode already. If the progression you gave earlier is right, then the song really isn't in any key or mode whatsoever. If the progression I found, however, is right, then the song can be considered to be in D Mixolydian.

Looking at it again, maybe it would make more sense to say it is in the key of G, which is slightly confusing still since the tonic isn't started or ended on, or even played for that matter (as a chord).

*Edit* Would saying it is in Em make more sense? I think maybe so ...

I think D Mixolydian is the best key identification that is possible.

I hope that all made sense... and cleared up some of the mess of my last post. Haha.

In His love,
Nate