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Unread 01-09-2005, 05:47 PM   #1
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Is this What you Would Consider conditional Grace?

I'm confuzzled now... and here's the reason.

Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith and it is not of yourself but is the gift of God."

But this verse sounds kind of contradicting.

"ONe of Jesus Followers came to him and asked "Lord, Lord! How shall we enter the kingdom of heaven?" Jesus Answered. "Verily i say unto you... keep the commandments and inherit eternal Life.""

So is it Grace... Good Works... or a combo of both?

And if a combo of both why does it say "And it is not of yourself."

Shouldn't it say. "It is kind of yourself... and mostly the gift of god"

So let's say you commit a horrible sin... something unbearable that becomes an addiction that you're truly sorry for doing. But you have so much trouble stopping that it becomes a virtual impossiblity. But you were truly sorry for it and beg for Jesus' Forgiveness every time...

Will you inherit Eternal Life... Or not.

Because I heard someone Say. "You will still be saved as long as you're truly sorry for doing it... and promise not to do it again." And I'm thinking... if this is true... that's conditional Grace. because if someone is honestly without a doubt sorry for it but has so much trouble stopping... what do you call that? Heaven or Hell? life or death for them?

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Unread 01-09-2005, 06:22 PM   #2
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We are only saved by the Grace of God. That is it. However, we are justified by faith, a faith that is working in love. A faith with acts of love make us able to go to heaven, but only God's grace actually saves us. Grace saves us, but faith with acts of love and obedience to the Commandments are required, God offers us grace through them, and the Sacraments.
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Unread 01-09-2005, 06:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Yours
And I'm thinking... if this is true... that's conditional Grace. because if someone is honestly without a doubt sorry for it but has so much trouble stopping... what do you call that? Heaven or Hell? life or death for them?
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law" (Rom 3:28). That is the only requirement of the Gospel. Anyone who says that to be saved you mush have faith _and_ resist sin, or have faith _and_ have good doctrine, or any other requirement, is not preaching the Gospel.

As for this particular example: if we turn away from sin through our own determination or strength, we are attempting to create a righteousness of our own apart from God, and the very act of resisting sin becomes sin ("all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" (Is 64:6); "everything that does not come from faith is sin" (Rom 14:23)). So clearly, having trouble stopping might be a sin, but stopping through our own strength would also be sin.

For a Christian, the strength to resist sin must come from dependence on God. But that means that any success that we attain against sin is not our own, but is a victory of God, working in us. Victory over sin does not cause our salvation; it is a result of salvation.
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Unread 01-09-2005, 06:25 PM   #4
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Quote:
We are only saved by the Grace of God. That is it. However, we are justified by faith, a faith that is working in love. A faith with acts of love make us able to go to heaven, but only God's grace actually saves us. Grace saves us, but faith with acts of love and obedience to the Commandments are required, God offers us grace through them, and the Sacraments.
You're a catholic aren't ya?

OKey Doke... So he doesn't offer it through Jesus Christ but through the commandments and sacraments. So If you believe in Jesus but still have a few bad addictions you'll go to hell.

IN that case 99% of all men in the world are screwed.
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Unread 01-09-2005, 06:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Yours
You're a catholic aren't ya?
Of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Yours
OKey Doke... So he doesn't offer it through Jesus Christ but through the commandments and sacraments.
Of course not... Where'd you get this idea? Grace comes through the Passion and Death of Jesus. I believe this grace is conferred, that is transmitted mainly through the Sacraments, and also through acts of love. This grace is the grace from Jesus, but it's passed on to us through these means.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Yours
So If you believe in Jesus but still have a few bad addictions you'll go to hell.

IN that case 99% of all men in the world are screwed.
Um, no. I'm not sure what you're basing this on. If an addiction is a extremely sinful one, then maybe, but I don't know what you're saying...
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Unread 01-09-2005, 06:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindman
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law" (Rom 3:28).
Works of love, and works of the law are two completely different things. I see non-Catholics use this verse to prove their case all the time, but I don't see why. James 2:24, 26 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone . . . For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." Works of the Law do not justify, as is said clearly by Scripture. Works of love do justify as is clear by Scripture.
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Unread 01-09-2005, 06:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Um, no. I'm not sure what you're basing this on. If an addiction is a extremely sinful one, then maybe, but I don't know what you're saying...
The fact that 99% of men in NA Christian or not... commit lust every day. I myself have had to battle and debate with my friends ceaselessly... including christian ones as to how lust is a sin because they don't understand. and The Demons that I overcame haunt me to this day.

IF I had died back when the addiction was taking me over no matter how hard i wanted to obey and follow God... Where would i have gone?

Quote:
Of course not... Where'd you get this idea? Grace comes through the Passion and Death of Jesus. I believe this grace is conferred, that is transmitted mainly through the Sacraments, and also through acts of love. This grace is the grace from Jesus, but it's passed on to us through these means.
So if you wanted to obey God with all your heart and follow his commandments... if that was your one desire... and yet somehow you managed to sin everytime, would you be forgiven and have an abode in heaven? Addictions that are not broken.... do they lead to hell? Even if you were a Christian who tried as hard as you could to resist them?
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Unread 01-09-2005, 06:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenchild
"For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." Works of the Law do not justify, as is said clearly by Scripture. Works of love do justify as is clear by Scripture.
The body has a spirit _because_ it is alive, in the same way that faith results in works _because_ it is faith. A good tree will produce good fruit, but grafting good fruit onto a good tree won't make it good. Salvation will always be accompanied by "works of love." But that doesn't mean that it is those "works of love" that save us. After all, wouldn't you agree that we must already be "saved" _before_ we can do "works of love?
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Unread 01-09-2005, 06:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Works of love, and works of the law are two completely different things. I see non-Catholics use this verse to prove their case all the time, but I don't see why. James 2:24, 26 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone . . . For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." Works of the Law do not justify, as is said clearly by Scripture. Works of love do justify as is clear by Scripture.
Shouldn't you do works of the Lord to show your gratitude to him rather than simply because you want into heaven?

I am eternally in his debt, and I work because I am eternally in his debt and I wish to thank him for it. Not because I want stuff in heaven or because I want into heaven myself. Because It says in the bible.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It doesn't say in 10:9 "And does a bunch of good stuff" It says what i clearly wrote. I follow the commandments not because I have to... but because I want to... because he did something for me... now I want to do something for him.
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Unread 01-09-2005, 10:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Yours
The fact that 99% of men in NA Christian or not... commit lust every day. I myself have had to battle and debate with my friends ceaselessly... including christian ones as to how lust is a sin because they don't understand. and The Demons that I overcame haunt me to this day.
I would also say 99% of men fall into this addiction, whether lesser or stronger. It's something that I think all men have struggled with, me included. So trust me I know what you're saying and I feel for ya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Yours
IF I had died back when the addiction was taking me over no matter how hard i wanted to obey and follow God... Where would i have gone?
If you truly and honestly worked as hard as you could to fight off this addiction, and still fell occasionally(but hated it when you did, and never fully consented), then this would be what the Catholic Church calls a venial sin. It's a lesser sin and doesn't condemn us to hell. It puts tension in our relationship w/God and weakens our strength in defeating future occasions of sin. They happen to EVERYBODY. These don't condemn us to death, but since we must be completely and 100% cleansed from all sin and all effects of sin, we must be washed clean of these sins before entering heaven. This can happen either before death, by confession and true repentance, or by God's cleansing, purging, burning love in state of being called Purgatory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Yours
So if you wanted to obey God with all your heart and follow his commandments... if that was your one desire... and yet somehow you managed to sin everytime, would you be forgiven and have an abode in heaven? Addictions that are not broken.... do they lead to hell? Even if you were a Christian who tried as hard as you could to resist them?
See above. If this is truly the case, then you would need to be cleansed before entering heaven, BUT YOU WILL GO TO HEAVEN, if these are the only types of offenses on the soul. Just a little pitstop(maybe a long one depending) in Purgatory on the way.

Mortal sins are the ONLY sins that condemn us to hell. What you are describing is not a deadly mortal sin, it's a venial sin and will not result in hell.
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Unread 01-09-2005, 10:10 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Blindman
The body has a spirit _because_ it is alive, in the same way that faith results in works _because_ it is faith. A good tree will produce good fruit, but grafting good fruit onto a good tree won't make it good. Salvation will always be accompanied by "works of love." But that doesn't mean that it is those "works of love" that save us. After all, wouldn't you agree that we must already be "saved" _before_ we can do "works of love?
Works DO NOT save us. Faith DOES NOT save us. Only Grace SAVES us. But we need faith, we need to believe in this grace and want it. Our faith must be alive, if not then it is useless. A faith that is alive has works.

And I don't think we must already be "saved" before doing good works. Why? Because I don't believe we are "saved" until we walk into heaven. Faith and works JUSTIFY us, there is a difference between justification and salvation. Justification makes it POSSIBLE for us to be saved. Salvation(which comes only from Grace) is what does the saving... obviously.
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Unread 01-09-2005, 10:23 PM   #12
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We are saved by Grace alone. It is our faith alone that justifies us. And it is our works that shows our true nature. True faith in God produces good works.
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Unread 01-09-2005, 10:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenchild
If you truly and honestly worked as hard as you could to fight off this addiction, and still fell occasionally(but hated it when you did, and never fully consented), then this would be what the Catholic Church calls a venial sin. It's a lesser sin and doesn't condemn us to hell. It puts tension in our relationship w/God and weakens our strength in defeating future occasions of sin. They happen to EVERYBODY. These don't condemn us to death, but since we must be completely and 100% cleansed from all sin and all effects of sin, we must be washed clean of these sins before entering heaven. This can happen either before death, by confession and true repentance, or by God's cleansing, purging, burning love in state of being called Purgatory.
yes, we go to purgatory because the blood of Christ isn't good enough to wash us clean.

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Mortal sins are the ONLY sins that condemn us to hell. What you are describing is not a deadly mortal sin, it's a venial sin and will not result in hell.
so if I commit a mortal sin, i'm screwed?
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Unread 01-09-2005, 10:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenchild
Works DO NOT save us. Faith DOES NOT save us. Only Grace SAVES us. But we need faith, we need to believe in this grace and want it. Our faith must be alive, if not then it is useless. A faith that is alive has works.
yes, this is true. It is our works that show the true nature of our faith and our hearts. We are justified by faith alone, but this faith is proved by our works.
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Unread 01-09-2005, 11:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Yours
Shouldn't you do works of the Lord to show your gratitude to him rather than simply because you want into heaven?
I am eternally in his debt, and I work because I am eternally in his debt and I wish to thank him for it. Not because I want stuff in heaven or because I want into heaven myself. [/QUOTE]

Of course. We don't do works because we want to be saved. We do works because it shows our faith in God, and furthers His kingdom on earth. It just so happens that God looks down on our works and considers them when He judges us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Yours
Because It says in the bible.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It doesn't say in 10:9 "And does a bunch of good stuff" It says what i clearly wrote.
Really? Have you ever actually checked?

James 1:22-25 starts us off nicely "Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror. He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like. But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does."

James 2:20-24 "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God.' See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

James 2:14-17 "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Hmm, that's enough w/James(remember I barely scratched the surface here). Let's try some other books.

Romans 2:5-7
"By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works."

Romans 2:13
"For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified."

Ephesians 6:8 "knowing that each will be requited from the Lord for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free."

Matthew 5:19-20 "Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Matthew 7:21 ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Matthew 7:24-27 ""Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock. And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined."

Matthew 19:16-21 "Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?' He answered him, 'Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.' He asked him, Which ones? And Jesus replied, 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother'; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.' The young man said to him, 'All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?' Jesus said to him, 'If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"

Luke 8:21 "He said to them in reply, 'My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and act on it.'"

1 Timothy 6:18-19 "Tell them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous, ready to share, thus accumulating as treasure a good foundation for the future, so as to win the life that is true life."

1 John 3:23-24 "And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us."

I'll take a break now. But this is just a little to show that yeah, faith is extremely important. Without faith, we are nothing. However, this faith must be a faith working through love, otherwise the faith is dead. Faith and works are both necessary.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Yours
I follow the commandments not because I have to... but because I want to... because he did something for me... now I want to do something for him.
Sure, of course. But see the above.
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