[H.M. Murdock]

I just want to say that all arguments relating to "social skills" are inherently fallacious. Why? Part to whole assumption. To say that all homeschoolers have no social skills is idiocy- I can name you fifteen people at least who interact on a far better level than any public schooler or college student you can point out to me. The argument should not be considered- never mind the fact that it shouldn't even have been made- in that it is... well... dumb. Giving a bus driver directions to your house is a social skill? Making wisecracks is social skill? Social skill is speaking tactfully, respecting other people, and being able to interact physically, such as not standing too close, making appropriate eye contact, etc. What you present as social skill is mindless gibberish and recitation of fact.

Originally Posted by Young Twig

Well, John, I never took advantage of my opportunity to join Debate Club, sorry.

Smack! *Makes slapping motion*
That's okay, because the NFL (National Forensics League), which you would have been joining, is a colossal waste of time. I've debate NFL students before, the their rules are so loose that debate is broken down into mindless squabbling before rebuttals. I schooled the ex-regional champ team. And I'm not even that good- ask Daniel. He's judged me in debate before.

And that's about all, really. Not much to say because most of what is being said on both sides is so ludicrous that I can't even think of what to say.
I'm homeschooled. I am a public speaker and team policy debater. When I open my mouth around adults, they listen, because they know that if it's a joke it'll be funny, and if it's a fact it will either be pleasantly wrong or bluntly true. This is not because I am homeschooled- it is because of the people I am surronded by, the way in which my parents raised me. And of course, the way that I have raised myself in the past two years. Thought is not established by an institution of education, nor is social skill or knowledge. It is the person. Therefore, I will tell you all as a solid fact that homeschooling and public/private schooling are on exactly the same plain. Some people are suited for one over the other. If I were in a school I would die, because I strongly dislike people as a general rule. So I am homeschooled, and I am not distracted by idiots surrounding me so that I can learn about international politics, economics, math, history, geography, literature, music and theology in peace.
Anyone who says one is objectively better in every case is either lying or stupid.

[Nate]

I was homeschooled.

I am awesome.

Therefore, homeschooling is awesome.

Q. E. D.

[H.M. Murdock]

Originally Posted by Nate

I was homeschooled.

I am awesome.

Therefore, homeschooling is awesome.

Q. E. D.

Nate is awesome
I make Nate laugh
Therefore, I am better than Nate.

I win.

Seriously. That was the worst syllogism ever. Die.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by H.M. Murdock

Seriously. That was the worst syllogism ever. Die.

[Wheatmeister]

Shame on those on both sides of this debate whose only purpose seems to be demonizing the other side.

Young Twig: You are letting your bad experiences in home schooling cloud your judgement and back you into positions that are almost untenable because they are so heavily dependent on your own prejudices. Are there some problems with homeschooling? Yes, but the same can be said for public schooling. Let's not be too hasty in our assumptions about the superiority of one over the other.

KFBobInsanesMom: Respectfully, you are old enough to know better. To read your posts, every kid who comes out of a public school is a dumb, morally bankrupt sociopath in the making. Surely a woman of your experience and intellect knows better than to make such generalizations. As I told Young Twig, there are positives and negatives with both options and one should not be so blinded to the faults of one's own position as to assume that it is the only correct way.

I went to public schools from kindergarten to my senior year in high school. I went to a public university. I'm currently at a private university for grad school and honestly, Wake Forest is only different from Oklahoma State University in that there are fewer students and tuition is ten times more expensive. What's more, I plan to go back to a public university for my doctorate. I like to think I've turned out pretty well. I get good grades, I'm generally an easy person to get along with, I don't get in trouble, and people seem to find me to be a good hearted person for the most part. My mother teaches in a public high school. My cousin used to teach in a public elementary school. Both of them are fine educators who do everything in their power to help their student learn and achieve. But there are problems with public education. The way schools are set up now worked well in an industrial society, but does little to meet the needs of a post-industrial world like ours. Curriculum should be more integrated, we should adopt a European style system where after 8th or 9th grade, kids should be steered toward a college prep track or a vocational track. Call it elitist if you must, but no one is well served by teaching to the lowest common denominator and many kids in college simply don't belong there, academically. However, these reforms will need time, support, and in some cases, increased funding. We, as a country, must make the committment to be part of the solution, not part of the problem when it comes to fixing public schools.

I know a number of bright, well adjusted kids who are products of home schools. Some of them have excelled in very difficult career paths. Their parents are intelligent, caring, well meaning people who want what's best for their children and have made great personal sacrifices to that end. These people have my utmost respect. However, I also know several home schooled kids who are not so well adjusted. They are lacking in social skills, intolerant of opinions that are not similar to their own, and have no idea how to deal with the pressures a less sheltered environment than the one they were raised in. Are these the norm? Certainly not, and no more normal than sociopaths in training from public schools. But they do exist and ignoring that does little to advance the cause of home schoolers.

In some ways, I can see how home schooling would have been beneficial for me. I was often bored in classes where I was more academically skilled than my classmates. However, on the whole, I enjoyed my high school experience. I met a lot of people, I did a lot of things, and I was exposed to things I may not have been exposed to otherwise.

There are pluses and minuses to both home schooling and public school, and that choice is best left for the individual family to decide upon. This brand of mud slinging and baseless generalization is pointless, counterproductive, and wildly divisive.

[Sarah_13]

I'm homeschooled, but I'm not saying which is better..other than to say that the "clicks" and so on in public schools suck. majorly. and they're stupid. Glad I don't have to deal with them. I have tons of friends, attend two different youth groups with a variety of people, and have plenty of other social outlets and functions which I attend. I finish my schoolwork in the daytime, NO HOMEWORK AT NIGHT. If you live out in the boonies though and there's no youth group or homeschool group in sight, homeschooling might not be so great, but personally I think homeschoolers get a lot more one on one attention from their teacher (which in my case is mom), instead of having 30 other kids vying for the teacher's help, or having to get afterschool help.

As far as social skills, most of the time that's crap. I've had several people say that the homeschoolers they know, are so much more open to people who are different than themselves, and are better able to converse with adults. Most public-schoolers I meet stay in their clicks, and refuse to put forth the smallest amount of effort to include you. (I do have friends though, who go to public school and rock, too. )

[thesteve]

cliques are just as existent in homeschools as they are in the public schools. in alot of ways being homeschooled is a clique in itself.

i can definitely see merits to both...and education should be tailored to the needs of the student.

[Visirale]

Ok, so we've debated this, and so far, I think the emphasis has been on average students.

I want to discuss the opportunites that public schools and home schools offer for the very top of a class, and the very bottom. That is, students seeking to go to top tier schools (to 50 universities), and students with disabilites.

I'm in one of the best school districts in our state. Here is what we have...

For special ed, students are provided with multiple teachers who are trained in dealing with them. They have a different curriculum. All sorts of other stuff I can't remember. But I'm inclined to say the public school atmosphere probably isn't the best for a child with emotional disabilities. Sophomoric chants of "retard!" can probably do a lot more harm than any specialist can try to fix.

For the top students though, my opinion is comletely different. If a student is interested in Ivy, Stanford, MIT, UCLA, UCB, any of the top liberal arts colleges, or the other very good state universities, it is essential to be somewhere where they can take an advanced academic schedule and be very involved in other activities.

Take my school for interest. I'm talked about it a lot but here it goes again. I am in the International Baccalaureate program. This is an intensive college prep program. It is more intensive than Advanced Placement courses. For instance, AP divides Calc AB and BC into two years. My math class next year (IB Math Higher Level) completes both in one year. The year is a two year course, so the second year is spent on upper level college mathematics. The rest of the IB classes also exceed AP standards, so students usually take those tests and excell.

It seems to me that this calliber of an education would be much harder to obtain at home. I know a few homeschoolers do get into the top schools. What concerns me is access to highly educated people in the homeschooling world. My history teacher has a PhD, my math teacher went to MIT, my physics teacher is getting her PhD... And they all care about us as students, and people. How easy is it for homeschoolers to get access to proffesionals?

Just a word on where I'm coming from... I'm a rising HS junior in the IB program with lofty aspirations of Princeton, Yale, Stanford, Dartmouth, UPENN, Colgate, Wesleyan, University of Miami and a few others...

[bobthecockroach]

How did you get to the top of the class? Because there's something that really bothers me about your post. You talked about "average students" versus the "top of the class", but I would like you to take a little trip with me. Imagine we are walking down the streets of whatever the nearest ghetto hell-hole is to your house (for me, this would be the 9th ward in New Orleans). Now imagine you see a child playing in the street. Does this child have a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting to your school? I didn't think so. Does this have ANYTHING to do with how hard he tries in school or how "intelligent" he is? Don't bet on it.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

How did you get to the top of the class? Because there's something that really bothers me about your post. You talked about "average students" versus the "top of the class", but I would like you to take a little trip with me. Imagine we are walking down the streets of whatever the nearest ghetto hell-hole is to your house (for me, this would be the 9th ward in New Orleans). Now imagine you see a child playing in the street. Does this child have a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting to your school? I didn't think so. Does this have ANYTHING to do with how hard he tries in school or how "intelligent" he is? Don't bet on it.

in this case, is homeschooling any better? i'd be willing to bet that the parents probably aren't educated enough to teach their kid past the 7th grade.

[bobthecockroach]

If the parents care about their children's education, then they can teach themselves the material first. In any event, the children in such places as the 9th Ward in New Orleans don't likely get a 7th grade level education anyway, so it can't possibly be worse.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

If the parents care about their children's education, then they can teach themselves the material first. In any event, the children in such places as the 9th Ward in New Orleans don't likely get a 7th grade level education anyway, so it can't possibly be worse.

the thing is that even in the "worst" school that I know of in my school district AP classes were still offered. I know that neither of my parents would've been able to teach me anything about Art History, or English Literature or Single-Variable Calculus. It's not even an issue of "teaching themselves the material"...what if the parents simply dont' think at that level, or (because i'm guessing that people in the 9th Ward live near the poverty line in the US) they're trying to hold down two jobs just to be able to keep their kid fed.

[bobthecockroach]

People in the 9th Ward don't live anywhere near (as high as) the poverty line, as far as I know.

Really, I don't think public schools teach (or expect) students to be "top of the class students." Of course, most parents probably wouldn't either.

So, what am I really saying? The world is screwed up.

Of the options available, I think homeschooling provides the best opportunities for the greatest number of students.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

People in the 9th Ward don't live anywhere near (as high as) the poverty line, as far as I know.

Really, I don't think public schools teach (or expect) students to be "top of the class students." Of course, most parents probably wouldn't either.

So, what am I really saying? The world is screwed up.

Of the options available, I think homeschooling provides the best opportunities for the greatest number of students.

maybe the public schools in your area are horrible...i'm not really sure. most of the schools i know of in south San Diego are equipped with teachers who will teach the "top of the class students". They might not expect every student to be the best, but top tier students are definitely coming from both the home schooled and the public schooled system, and not necessarily from higher-income parts of the cities either.

[bobthecockroach]

The public schools in New Orleans are, without question, horrible.