[OneHope]

The Bible says that those who have Jesus Christ dwelling within them will be able to perform the same sort of miracles that Jesus Christ performed. Why then, do we not see the lame walk and the blind see in our church in North America? That sort of stuff happens in third world countries, why not here?

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by OneHope

Why then, do we not see the lame walk and the blind see in our church in North America?

When we are saved, do the blind not see and the crippled not walk? I think you are framing the question in a purely materialistic way, rather than framing it spiritually (which, in my mind, is the context of the example you gave).

Second, Christ did those things as assertion of his authority; he was trying to prove that he was the messiah by doing things that only God was supposed to be doing. Since we're not the messiah and we're not God...

The apostles, likewise, were asserting their authority as apostles, not doing something every believer can or is supposed to do.

That sort of stuff happens in third world countries, why not here?

I think a lot of people claim "that sort of stuff happens in third world countries," but I doubt a verifiable, authentic and truly miraculous incident has occuried.

[+Donny]

Maybe it's just because I'm hungry, but I have a funny feeling that this may turn into a theological debate.

[Insane Drummer]

"The Bible says that those who have Jesus Christ dwelling within them will be able to perform the same sort of miracles that Jesus Christ performed."

Reference please... I want to know exactly what verse you have in mind.

[OneHope]

Originally Posted by Insane Drummer

Reference please... I want to know exactly what verse you have in mind.

"12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. "
John 14:12-14

"27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
2 Cor. 12:27-14

Originally Posted by +Donny

Maybe it's just because I'm hungry, but I have a funny feeling that this may turn into a theological debate.

Sorry, but this is something I'm really struggling with and need answers too.

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

I think a lot of people claim "that sort of stuff happens in third world countries," but I doubt a verifiable, authentic and truly miraculous incident has occuried.

Jesus is still alive, so why can't he stop performing the miracles that He did when He was on earth? Or, were the miracles He performed on Earth not verifiable, authentic or truly miraculous incidents?

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by OneHope

Jesus is still alive, so why can't he stop performing the miracles that He did when He was on earth?

Because Jesus isn't on earth.

Or, were the miracles He performed on Earth not verifiable, authentic or truly miraculous incidents?

Beats me, but that wasn't the focus of the original question or assertion.

[Ted Logan]

Originally Posted by OneHope

"12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. "
John 14:12-14

May God bless the reading of His Word. But Christ says that the faithful will do greater things. What is greater? The preaching and teaching of the Word are greater than speaking in tongues and healing men and women. Back up a bit...

Joh 14:8 Philip *said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9 Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
Joh 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

What are the works that Christ is talking about? You need to prove from the Scriptures that Christ is talking about healings, before you use this passage in support of that claim.

[quote]"27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
2 Cor. 12:27-14

And the greater gifts are that of being apostles, prophets, and teachers.

Sorry, but this is something I'm really struggling with and need answers too.

No problem. I think the issue comes from misunderstanding the importance of various gifts. The gift of healing, whether we see it today in our churches or not, is much less important than the preaching of the Gospel. The real question to ask is, "Is the Gospel being preached in the Episcopal Church today?"

To take what Isaac (Ridley's Own) was saying a little further, don't you think it is a more amazing thing for the Lord Christ to break the chains of sin and death in the life of a sinner, to transform that person and conform that person in the image of Jesus, to make a man who cannot see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3), that is, one who is blind in a much worse way than a physically blind man, and give him the ability to see the author and finisher of our Faith? The question, then, is whether the Gospel is being preached.

The answer to that question has a local and a global answer. First, does my church preach the Gospel and do God's work of preaching and teaching the Gospel as we received it from the apostles? And second, does the Episcopal Church or the Anglican Communion do the same? I can tell you that my church does, and I believe the Anglican Communion does, by large majority, as well.

Jesus is still alive, so why can't he stop performing the miracles that He did when He was on earth? Or, were the miracles He performed on Earth not verifiable, authentic or truly miraculous incidents?

I think you're relying on a particularly modern idea of what a "miracle" is. The word translated "miracle" is more accurately a "mighty work." God's creation is a mighty work; His work on the Cross is a mighty work. Christ's works of healing were mighty works, and so is His work of sanctification in us. God never ceases His mighty works here in the world. But the gifts that were common in the Apostolic Age, such as the spiritual gift of healing, may or may not have its place in the Church today. For me, it doesn't affect my mission in life, which is to proclaim the Gospel. If God chooses to use gifts of healing to accomplish His Will, so be it. If, as I suspect, He has ceased to use that gift, then that is His prerogative. The healing gifts had a certain purpose, and perhaps that purpose is complete. If your faith is shaky because you don't see the dead raised today, perhaps you should ask God to strengthen your faith instead of asking Him to show you a mighty healing.

I am aware that healings are reported worldwide to this day. Those accounts don't really impress me, simply because I know that there are Benny Hinns all over the world.

[EvenThen]

I believe that miracles happen today, but people just don't have the faith.

[OneHope]

I have seen someone healed of an ulcer; in the morning it was there and then he met with a pastor and when I saw him in the afternoon, he was healed.

The main reason that I ask this question is that Christianity is so boring in North America. I have seen numerous people accept Christ, yet their lives don't change. They aren't suddenly more joyous, or more happy. They're the same. That's what it was like in my life as well. I accepted Christ but nothing changed. I was a good 'Christian' kid before and I'm still a good Christian kid yet with Jesus in my heart. But, I feel like that hasn't changed anything in my life. I've heard hundred's of sermons, been to many camps and retreats, played in worship bands, read many books on the faith, been on the prayer teams and joined Campus Crusade for Christ and the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship. Yet, even after all that I still feel empty. I feel like a shell just watching the world go by.

The other day, I randomly ran into a pentecostal guy and he told me about the sort of stuff that goes on at his church and he told me about having the Holy Spirit come upon the Christians. The thing is, I'm a Christian yet I don't feel like I have the Holy Spirit in me.

I think that I have lost all passion for Christ and it makes me mad. I'm not saying that seeing a healing in my congregation will ignite the passion but I'm just saying that we are in a church that does not appear to have any passion either. Our church population goes up to about 600 on Christmas, dwindles, spikes to about 500 on Easter then dwindles down again so that in August we'd be lucky to get 70 out to a service. Where is the passion there! I have never heard of any of the parishoners at my church taking it to the streets and evangelising to the lost and perishing; yet, if you advertise a quilt making party or a bazaar, you get excitement.

Sometimes on TV, I see church services in places like Africa and Asia, and that is passion!!!