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Unread 11-18-2004, 07:24 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by agrimes87
By now you must have made some progress in your situation. Any news?
Are you talking to me?

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Unread 11-18-2004, 07:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Cade
Are you talking to me?
no, sorry. I was talking to the guy who started this thread...Jesse Joshua.
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Unread 11-18-2004, 07:32 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrimes87
no, sorry. I was talking to the guy who started this thread...Jesse Joshua.
ok, i didn't know because you've posted in the thread about my worship team also
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Unread 11-18-2004, 07:45 PM   #49
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i think cade hit on a very important point, no matter what you hold as who is qualified to lead in worship, in selecting people, listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and you can't go wrong. pray, in the decision process should be foremost
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Unread 11-18-2004, 08:28 PM   #50
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...just popped in....sorry i missed all the fireworks guys...

...in response to agrimes87...i have decided to start him out at practices...i have already asked him to help out with cleaning, stacking chairs,etc..part of servanthood,eh?....i have also given him a copy of Tim Hughes book...a very simple and straightforward manual for anyone involved on the worship team....and i will discuss worship and our intent with him later...i would like to know his thoughts....

...in response to Awzmgd117...yes the whole process will be bathed in prayer....on both sides...i believe that God will open and close doors...that His purpose will be achieved if we truly want it....the church's corporate prayer group will also pray....

....as far as quantitatively (spelling?) evaluating his "spiritual maturity"...i'm not sure if that's even possible...i will have to look for fruits....much was spoken about christian standards.....the only real standard we must hold ourselves to is Christ Himself..whether you are the pastor or pew warmer....i agree with sean that the scriptures in Tim and Titus were specific to those positions that they addressed...not to our bongo guy...

...i also agree with i-am-snappy that his commitment might be a factor....i don't want a church hopper on the team....will have to discuss with him....

....in my conversations with him, there are certain characteristics i will look for....among them being humility, teachability and hunger for God, the things of God and God's will to be done.....

peace....will keep y'all informed...thanks!
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Unread 11-18-2004, 09:02 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cade
I'm with you on this. I'm just saying that if I'm the leader, I'm not going to ask somebody to help out that I don't think is already there spiritually. If I'm at the point of asking them to join, it's for more than just the fact that they play well. If all they do is play well, I'll just ask them to get together and play sometime, not be on the worship team.
The problem is that I don't have a specific way to tell if a person is being spiritual without trusting my heart, and thereby God, to lead me in the right direction. I think that the fruits will be evident to us because God makes them that way.
I hope that makes sense a little bit. I think that maybe we are on the same page in this, I just hadn't put all of my thoughts out here yet.
I'd love to continue this discussion, just not to the extent of others here. (Hence, please don't comment on every sentence separately.)
I think we agree It's always kind of been my impression as well that God will make it clear to us if we ask, so I know what you're saying. Hmm..can't think of anything else to say right now
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Unread 11-18-2004, 10:17 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_01
I think we agree It's always kind of been my impression as well that God will make it clear to us if we ask, so I know what you're saying. Hmm..can't think of anything else to say right now
Cool. I'm glad we agree.
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Unread 11-19-2004, 07:04 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Cade
Cool. I'm glad we agree.
We're all happy now, the problem is solved, advice is given, we've been enlightened...

This seems like a great time to close this thread . Kinda like the end of a movie where the bad guy dies (or is put in jail forever), everyone cheers for the hero, the dog finds its mate, the house gets rebuilt, and just when you think it can't get any better, the hero gets the girl
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Unread 11-19-2004, 04:17 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrimes87
We're all happy now, the problem is solved, advice is given, we've been enlightened...

This seems like a great time to close this thread . Kinda like the end of a movie where the bad guy dies (or is put in jail forever), everyone cheers for the hero, the dog finds its mate, the house gets rebuilt, and just when you think it can't get any better, the hero gets the girl

lol...thanks again guys....see ya in the next thread over!

peace.

Jesse
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Unread 11-19-2004, 06:10 PM   #55
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uh...

i just read all of that... i guess if sean isnt here anymore he wont answer this... maybe someone else can... i dont think grey areas are Biblical. i mean, isnt the Bible black and white? can someone be sort of a Christian and sort of not a Christian? either you are or you arent right? or did i miss something? and sean from what i saw, she wasnt calling you an idiot.. you called yourself an idiot you said: "...therefore I'm an idiot. " i dont know how to get all fancy with the quotes and stuff.. but you are VERY confrontational... in almost all of your posts that i have seen... im sorry bro... everyone is confrontational by nature... and some of us (like me) cant spell either *sigh* but i think you, like she said bro, are just arguing for the sake of arguing. if, like you said, you were arguing the same point, you would have quit arguing, which really shows me that you were just trying to be right, and prove that you were right... i saw atleast once when you took one of your quotes, and quoted it, then took her quote from several posts before and added it as a reply to your quote... thats not fair... thats like saying she was arguing with your future post before it was made...

on the issue of the worship team. yeah, they should all be held to a HIGH standard. the worship leader at my church stepped down for several months while he had discipline issuse with his child. that was the proper thing to do. i would expect that a pastor get kicked out for smoking pot, as well as a worship leader. which goes back to my original point which is that grey areas DO NOT exist. you cant "read between the lines" of the Bible can you? how does that work? tell me why you are "pro-grey areas" cuz i dont think they are biblical. if there is a pastor or someone who can QUOTE scripture that tells me that you can read between the lines of the Bible i will believe it. you just cant add stuff, or take stuff away bro. thats not how it works.

and for the original question... i play bass for my worship team. what i made to do before, was learn how to do the set-up and take down of the sound equipment. ofcourse we rent our building so maybe you guys dont have weekly set up /take down like we do. i had to learn how to run the board before i could play... i did that for like 3 years before i played on the team. that was also cuz i was alot younger but anyways... maybe you could have him learn the sound before you let him play? i dunno... i think you should go with your gut..

anyways those are my thoughts...
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Unread 11-19-2004, 08:22 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicgtrfreak
and sean from what i saw, she wasnt calling you an idiot..
*he

and thank you....no, i wasn't calling him an idiot.
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Unread 11-19-2004, 08:38 PM   #57
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...since this was basically someone "confronting" me publically, it seemed worth responding to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by classicgtrfreak
i just read all of that... i guess if sean isnt here anymore he wont answer this... maybe someone else can... i dont think grey areas are Biblical. i mean, isnt the Bible black and white?
What are the black and white biblical qualifications for a bongo player? Where does the Bible address the qualifications for the guy that picks up trash? Where does the Bible tell us what songs to play on sunday mornings?

The Bible doesn't give black and white answers to any of those questions. Those are grey areas not explicity covered by scripture. ...if you claim it covers those areas, you're either adding to scripture or reading things into the lines.

Quote:
can someone be sort of a Christian and sort of not a Christian? either you are or you arent right? or did i miss something?
What does this have to do with anything? I haven't ever suggested otherwise.

There are grey areas in Christianity. That doesn't mean EVERYTHING is grey. The Bible makes black and white statements, it also leaves Christians with a great deal of freedom. Romans 14 is all about how there is grey area and how we shouldn't judge one another for different convictions.

Romans 14:1-4 (ESV)
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. [2] One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. [3] Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. [4] Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.


Quote:
and sean from what i saw, she wasnt calling you an idiot.. you called yourself an idiot you said: "...therefore I'm an idiot. "
This was the way things unfolded

Agrimes87 says something to me in a condescending fashion as if I were an idiot.
I respond: I checked my user text. It does not say that I'm an idiot. So there is no need to speak to me as such.
Agrimes87 says: I read your previous posts. They imply that you are confrontational. That's why I speak to you as such.
I respond: ...therefore I'm an idiot.

The phrase "idiot" was in question. He equated being confrontational with "idiot" and called me "confrontational." If he didn't mean to imply I was an idiot, he would have responded by saying "NO that isn't what I meant." Instead he implied that confrontational people need to be spoken to as if they were idiots. Thus he was implying I'm an idiot.

Quote:
i dont know how to get all fancy with the quotes and stuff.. but you are VERY confrontational... in almost all of your posts that i have seen... im sorry bro... everyone is confrontational by nature... and some of us (like me) cant spell either *sigh*
...like you confronting me in this thread? What was the point of calling me confrontational publically like this?

Quote:
but i think you, like she said bro, are just arguing for the sake of arguing. if, like you said, you were arguing the same point, you would have quit arguing, which really shows me that you were just trying to be right, and prove that you were right...
Huh? I have no idea what that even means. They TOO are trying to be right. YOu're trying to be right. I'm disagreeing with them because of the way they're useing scripture. That seems like a pretty important issue to me...being that it will drastically affect how you run the church. Yes, I do want to be right about how to interpret scripture. Why do you have a problem with that?

Quote:
i saw atleast once when you took one of your quotes, and quoted it, then took her quote from several posts before and added it as a reply to your quote... thats not fair... thats like saying she was arguing with your future post before it was made...
Do you realize how absurdly confrontational YOU are being? You're nitpicking this and thats that I did in a discussion. YOu don't know me and you weren't involved in this thread. When did you become the judge of what is "fair?" I'm not really going to respond to your objection because its fairly clear that you don't understand what I did in the post you're refering to.


Quote:
which goes back to my original point which is that grey areas DO NOT exist. you cant "read between the lines" of the Bible can you? how does that work?


Alright, I won't read between the lines. Please quote to me the biblical qualifications for bongo player?

Quote:
tell me why you are "pro-grey areas" cuz i dont think they are biblical. if there is a pastor or someone who can QUOTE scripture that tells me that you can read between the lines of the Bible i will believe it. you just cant add stuff, or take stuff away bro. thats not how it works.

Have you read any of my posts? Who are you responding to? You seem to have no grasp of the actual discussion. I haven't advocated reading between the lines. I haven't suggest adding to or removing scripture. If I took what you said seriously, I'd be very offended by it. My entire point is that scripture DOESN'T give qualifcations for certain positions (because it doesn't). YOu can't therefore take deacon, elder, bishop, or overseer qualifcations and apply them to bongo player. It doesn't work that way.
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Unread 11-19-2004, 11:12 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean
What are the black and white biblical qualifications for a bongo player? Where does the Bible address the qualifications for the guy that picks up trash? Where does the Bible tell us what songs to play on sunday mornings?
I'll try your tactic...
Quote:
The Bible doesn't give black and white answers to any of those questions. Those are grey areas not explicity covered by scripture. ...if you claim it covers those areas, you're either adding to scripture or reading things into the lines.
you're being very legalistic, and you're making the assumption that your interpretation of scripture is superior to my, or his, interpretation of it. you've posted your interpretation, i've posted mine. it becomes confrontational when you begin to argue that my interpretation is wrong, and that yours is superior to mine.

Quote:
There are grey areas in Christianity. That doesn't mean EVERYTHING is grey. The Bible makes black and white statements, it also leaves Christians with a great deal of freedom.
since you've clearly implied that the topic we're discussing is a grey area...why aren't you giving us that very freedom? i feel that i have interpreted scripture properly, and according to you, i have the freedom to do so. perhaps it's time you stopped confronting me about that (among other things).

Quote:
Romans 14 is all about how there is grey area and how we shouldn't judge one another for different convictions.

Romans 14:1-4 (ESV)
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. [2] One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. [3] Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. [4] Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
you've just backed up the very point i was making above with scripture. perhaps you should read that scripture again a few times, then consider what you've been doing to myself and anyone else who doesn't happen to have the same "convictions" as you.


Quote:
This was the way things unfolded

Agrimes87 says something to me in a condescending fashion as if I were an idiot.
no, i made a logical statement, and since you already knew it, you assumed that i realized that and was saying it to make you look like a fool, when in fact i was stating logic to create the necessary momentum for the rest of my post.

Quote:
I respond: I checked my user text. It does not say that I'm an idiot. So there is no need to speak to me as such.
Agrimes87 says: I read your previous posts. They imply that you are confrontational. That's why I speak to you as such.
I respond: ...therefore I'm an idiot.

The phrase "idiot" was in question. He equated being confrontational with "idiot"
no, i didn't. i just said you were confrontational. that was all.

Quote:
and called me "confrontational." If he didn't mean to imply I was an idiot, he would have responded by saying "NO that isn't what I meant."
or, i would have corrected your wrong interpretation of the intent of my obvious statements. i posted the obvious statement because you were being confrontational, and so i felt it necessary to post in that fashion. you interpreted it as treating you like an idiot, and so i corrected you, explaining that i posted it because you were being confrontational.

Quote:
nstead he implied that confrontational people need to be spoken to as if they were idiots. Thus he was implying I'm an idiot.
you assume too many implications in my posts. when you say i "implied" something, you are stating your interpretation of my post, which you have the right to do. however, when i correct your wrong interpretations of my implications, you argue against me. i stated that i wasn't calling you an idiot. however, you continue to argue that i did, on the basis that i "implied" such. this is your interpretation, and i have already corrected it. the internet is one of the worst possible methods of communications. it is very easy to miscommunicate and misinterpret. however, you seem to be unable to accept that you are capable of these mistakes.


Quote:
Huh? I have no idea what that even means. They TOO are trying to be right. YOu're trying to be right.
trying to be right and disagreeing with intepretations and "convictions" are two totally different matters. I was never trying to be "right", because I was never afraid of being wrong. This isn't a black and white topic, as you have already admitted. And so it comes down to interpretations and convictions. Both of which you insist on proving that yours are superior, and you won't seem to quit until you do. Can't you just relax and accept that people can have different interpretations of scripture, and different convictions?

Quote:
I'm disagreeing with them because of the way they're useing scripture.
correction...you're confronting us because your interpretation of "grey area" scripture is different than ours. we have the right to interpret things differently, and to disagree. but I would have liked it if you had left it at that, instead of attacking my interpretations. that would make CGR a much more pleasant place for christians of different "convictions" to participate in.

Quote:
That seems like a pretty important issue to me...being that it will drastically affect how you run the church. Yes, I do want to be right about how to interpret scripture.
you yourself have already proven my point on this by backing me up with scripture. i've said enough about the "freedom" to have my own "convictions". but it's nice to see that you're so concerned with keeping the theology my church runs itself with accurate.

Quote:
Why do you have a problem with that?
why do you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by you said, but a long time back i should have
Do you realize how absurdly confrontational YOU are being? You're nitpicking this and thats that I did in a discussion.
i think you know what i'm thinking about this.

Quote:
YOu don't know me and you weren't involved in this thread.
he is now, and he has the full right to be. it's an open thread, and it looks to me like he's read it through and understands what's happened.

Quote:
When did you become the judge of what is "fair?"
when he obtained his human rights.

Quote:
I'm not really going to respond to your objection because its fairly clear that you don't understand what I did in the post you're refering to.
umm....

yeah.....


Quote:
Alright, I won't read between the lines. Please quote to me the biblical qualifications for bongo player?
you quote me. otherwise, we can't have one.

please show me the scripture that says we can even HAVE a bongo player. show me the scripture that says we need guidelines for a bongo player. you're not quoting that much scripture yourself.


Quote:
Have you read any of my posts?
obviously, yes. please don't ask me not to refer to you like an idiot when you're going to ask questions like this. i'm not sure if this is idiotic or confrontational, or both.

Quote:
Who are you responding to?
you.

Quote:
You seem to have no grasp of the actual discussion.
looks to me like he does. besides, he started his post with:
Quote:
i just read all of that...
so yeah, he read it.


Quote:
I haven't advocated reading between the lines. I haven't suggest adding to or removing scripture.
no. however, you refuse to accept that we can interpret it ourselves.

Quote:
If I took what you said seriously, I'd be very offended by it.
i could be interpreting you wrongly, but it looks to me like you're taking him seriously, since you've taken so much time to respond to him. and your use of caps and your attitude of complete self-preservation imply that you're offended. Also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by YOU
...since this was basically someone "confronting" me publically, it seemed worth responding to

Quote:
My entire point is that scripture DOESN'T give qualifcations for certain positions (because it doesn't). YOu can't therefore take deacon, elder, bishop, or overseer qualifcations and apply them to bongo player.
says who? scripture? does scripture say that i can't take those guidelines and apply them to a bongo player? are there some other guidelines that apply more closely to a bongo player than a pastor? the word pastor isn't in there either! since those are the only guidelines for leadership you seem able to find, then i would in fact take it as more evidence that we should use those guidelines (seriously, they're all pretty much the same thing) for bongo players too, and every other leadership position!

Quote:
It doesn't work that way.
says who? what makes you the authority on interpreting scripture? i assure you, myself and others on this board are well able to interpret scripture ourselves without your help. also, we don't need your correction on it. if we're not sure about our interpetations, then we'll post a question about it, and i hope you don't think i'm too proud to do so if i'm unsure of myself. however, in this case, i have interpreted scripture on my own, and i don't feel unsure about it. my convictions are my own, and not only do i have the full right to them, but you yourself posted the scripture that says you are wrong for attacking those convictions!

I'm getting very tired of trying to be non-confrontational with you, Sean. You are enough to try any man's patience.
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Unread 11-19-2004, 11:33 PM   #59
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...ok guys...time to breathe a bit...i'm getting a headache!

...maybe you can take this somewhere else!!! (i think Cade's got an interesting thread as well...maybe confront eachother there)....anyways...i thought this thread was done???...i am pretty satisfied with my decision.

...btw...the idea to have him work sound is a great one.....will let him see how our team works!!!

peace.
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Unread 11-19-2004, 11:53 PM   #60
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It really bothers me that you'd tell me you're "extremely sorry" for any offense that you'd caused me and then responded with a post like that. I don't want to debate you anymore. I wanted to leave things be. Someone NOT in the discussion came in and made uncalled for attacks on me and I defended myself. For some reason you decided to respond to my defense as if I was attacking you. I wasn't. As far as I can tell there was resolution between us. Instead of letting it go, you responded to a post not intended for you being extremely defensive of yourself and being very confrontational towards me. I was responding to a post by classicgtrfreak to classicgtrfreak. Why did you respond to it as if I was writing to you?

It was completely out of line for you to call me legalistic. Sure, I can come off confrontational, but legalistic? That was uncalled for.


On Christian Freedom:

Christian freedom refers to how you personal do things. If your church chooses to use deacon qualifcations for your bongo player, I don't have a problem with that. However, when you make a universal statement such as "If someone, for whatever reason, does not adhere to any of these guidelines, no matter what leadership position they're being considered for, they shouldn't be allowed to assume that position," you're no longer talking about what your church chooses to do. You're making an assertion about what scripture teaches. You're making a statement about how I should be doing things as a Christian. When you make those sorts of statements, when I call you on it that isn't me being confrontational.


Quote:
I'm getting very tired of trying to be non-confrontational with you, Sean. You are enough to try any man's patience.
I wasn't even responding to you. Why are you responding to me like this and treating me like an animal? YOu keep telling me how confrontational I am but you just told me I'm "You are enough to try any man's patience" when I wasn't even talking to you.

I know i can come off strong but you're the only person who has ever told me, "You are enough to try any man's patience." So, I really must NOT be enough to try ANY man's patience, just yours.
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