[H.M. Murdock]

Originally Posted by +Donny

If I understand you right, that is a false dichotomy. It is not either a secular state or a church-run state. Those are not the only two choices. Christian political theory does not mean Church-run government.

I never said it was church-run inherently. I was pointing out how religiously based authorities can be so terrible individually, not just as a religious government. Individual religious leaders can be just as bad as the worst church-run government.

Now, if you instead of meaning to suggest that a state that bases it's policies on ethical/religious truth will be flawed, then merely pointing out times when it hasn't worked really proves nothing.

How does it not prove anything? If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Plain and simple.

Scripturally, the origin and justification for the very existence of the State is in God. If you would like to maintain that founding our political theory on God's eternal word is foolish, then fine, go right ahead; I really don't see how you can honestly claim that your "do what works" claim works better than the "do what is right and Godly" claim.

You're operating entirely on the possibility that a religious authority would see right and wrong objectively from a biblical standpoint. This is silly.
"Religion is what the common people see as true, the wise people see as false, and the rulers see as useful."
-Seneca

If I am in authority, I have no reason to be genuinely religious, or follow a religious code. I can say ____ is immoral because my personal religion (read: because I personally dislike/disagree) says so, then back it with a moronic argument, and by your logic that is okay.

[+Donny]

How does it not prove anything? If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Plain and simple.

You haven't provededen that it doesn't work. Pointing to times when the theory I am espousing was corrupted isn't actually interacting with my position. Of course they didn't work; they were corrupt.

You're operating entirely on the possibility that a religious authority would see right and wrong objectively from a biblical standpoint. This is silly.

I agree. Good thing I'm not operating on that possibility; that is, if you mean "objectively" as "infallibly" or "inerrantly".

"Religion is what the common people see as true, the wise people see as false, and the rulers see as useful."
-Seneca

That is an incredibly ambiguous, useless definition. Does he mean good religion, or just religion in general? What on earth does this have to do with this discussion? If you are going to force this definition on what I have said, then you are equivocating. If not, then it is entirely irrelevant, and really quite absurd.

If I am in authority, I have no reason to be genuinely religious, or follow a religious code. I can say ____ is immoral because my personal religion (read: because I personally dislike/disagree) says so, then back it with a moronic argument, and by your logic that is okay.

In what post and in what paragraph did I ever support such a ridiculous political philosophy? That is one ugly looking strawman.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by H.M. Murdock

Hrm. Funny how you're ready to answer a question, but when the question is asked your mind goes blank, isn't it?

What are you talking about here? I haven't been around for a while but I don't remember my mind drawing a blank, or for that matter when you asked me a question.

Let's go with the legalization of drugs- I'm sure you know both sides of that argument, so I won't go into it. And... that is the only one I can think up for now. But I will shoot you a PM or something if I think of more, haha.

Let the readers recall that I challenged H.M. Murdock to provide several Biblical ideals that coincide with good government. For every ideal he proposed, I would propose two ideals that would coincide to what he doubtless would consider bad government.

However, I fail to see how you are proposing a Biblical ideal here. Are you suggesting the Bible's vague idea that drinking is okay but intoxication is bad? I'll agree with this -- moderation is a good thing, and moderate drug use should be allowed.

Now for the ideals you obviously don't think would make good government:
1. Kill anyone who works on Saturday.
2. Let women have no authority over men.

What's next?

[guitarmonkey<><]

Christ condencended the pharisees becuz they were like that they were missing the whole point you are trying to take Old testament laws and twist and perverse them to your own argument, Do i believe you should be stoned because you work on, Anyone who thinks that they are here cuz a mistake is messed up, why not kill all the other mistakes? it doesnt matter, theyre life is worth nothing. may i remind you that this country was FOUNDED on Christianity, " that all men were CREATED equal, and they were endowed by their CREATOR with certain inennelligible rights...Hmmm, maybe my spelling sucks but that doesnt sound like "...all Men were fluked up equally, and they were endowend for no reason, cuz they are monkeys...LETS CREATE THE GOVERNMENT !