[Gracie Love]

Originally Posted by nckcool_11

just cause ur not a witch doesnt mean that witches dont exist. the salem witch trials were insane, but if u guys do ever go to salem u will see some crazy stuff, and know wut im talking about.
this is really frusterating because obviously u guys have never seen witches and stuff, and u probably dont believe it exists. if youve seen this stuff u will probably know where im coming from

Actually if you really want to know in my past I was a witch. That is I was Wiccan. I have also done extensive research on witches and paganism, which includes Halloween. Halloween even in its pagan start was a day believed that restles or evil spirits would come back to pocess a living body. People started dressing up to ward off the restless or evil spirits. The church and Christians adapted the same pratice after the conquering of the celtic territories.

Not to get off subject but i do believe there are evil spirits around. Go to Europe there are really funky things going on there and exspecially in Germany which is a major hot bed of paganism and evil spirits.

Back on topic Halloween is a fairly harmless holliday, it is commercial. Granted Wiccans and satanist hold the night to be special, but it has nothing to do with our version of halloween (as in the mainstream version of halloween). To them more important holidays or "holy days" are the solistis. Those four days of season changes are the days of their power.

To me Halloween is just another hallmark holliday. If you want to not celebrate a holliday because of its pagan roots, then the only holidays you should celbrate is thanksgiving and 4th of july.

[walkwjc]

Hmm... we just went through this, too. I told the kids they couldn't go trick or treating, and when they asked me why, I gave them three reasons.

1) It's the devil's holiday. Basically, as a culture, we've taken a pagan holiday, which in itself wasn't really evil, and added on a bunch of creepy satanic nonsense. Then we've watered it back down, making the cardboard jack-o-lanterns (idols originally intended to ward off evil spirits), witches, and skeletons have cute expressions. But let's face it... there's no real Christian meaning to Halloween. All Saints' Day? That was just an attempt to weaken the impact of Halloween. Our family celebrates Reformation Day on Nov. 1, but that's completely different.

2) With all the junk food out there, I'm already having a hard time getting my kids to eat right. I really don't want them to haul back a big bag of pure sugar.

3) Since when has it ever been a good idea to encourage children to take candy from strangers? I refrained from giving them any details, but I told my kids there are weird people out there who look for a chance to hurt children.

They whined and groaned, but my husband backed me up on it, and they really need to learn the lesson that the world will often encourage you to participate in stuff that just isn't good or right, and it's OK to say no.

I don't have any problem with kids wearing costumes. It's a lot of fun for everyone, even the parents. But why not have a costume party some other time during the year instead? That would let them have their joy but keep it separate from this revolting 'holiday' that we've come to accept as normal.

Please understand I don't judge anyone who lets their kids participate in Halloween. I choose to react the way I do for my own reasons, but someone else will see it differently, and that's fine.

~WM~

As a parent, I pretty much agree with this.

BillSPQ said:
I am not opposed to Halloween. If we were having Samhein celebrations I would be opposed. However my oposition would probably best be noticed by a figure in black Jeans and a black leather jacket and a wallet chain either wandering the streets in prayer, or finding a quiet spot to pray. This year my school forbad me from halloween activities.

Normally I do something with kids on Halloween, to proactively share the gospel.

Whoch is better, to sieze th night as a beachhead, or hide from it?

I think the problem here, Bill, is: yes you are correct not to hide it and to proactively spread the gospel, but are you to join in and participate as well? I don't know.


The thing that bothers me is that so many christians sit the fence on this holiday, yet I havent heard WHY the church celebrates this holiday. I mean I see your point about every week day being named after pagan gods and other things in this world that have pagan references, but we don't celebrate each day of the week.

Now you say that Halloween is not really tied to its roots anymore and is really just a secular commercial holiday? Aren't we as Christains supposed to separate our self from worldly ways?

Now I will probably shock you, but I think the same goes for the Christmas tree and the easterbunny. I mean really where in scripture are those things. And actually in Dueteronomy or Numbers I think there is a scripture describing the Christmas tree and says DO NOT do this.

I don't think by not celebrating a pagan holiday that we hand over one of the Lord's days to the enemy. That would mean that we would have to really keep track of every pagan holiday and make sure we had a counter holiday just to keep that day.

And since this is the parenting forum, do Christian parents really think it is a good idea to even start our kids in believing in Santa Clause, the Easterbunny or Halloween, when they are unbiblical, and do not have christian roots. What is the point?

So I invoke the WWJD on this one and let you all make your own decisions and now step down off my soap box *stepping down and tripping on shoe lace*. Sorry for the rant.

Now I typed all of this in love and if you read it as me yelling it, remember, I typed it in a whisper.

God be with you
-d

[nckcool_11]

walkwjc pretty much said it all...

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by walkwjc

As a parent, I pretty much agree with this.
I think the problem here, Bill, is: yes you are correct not to hide it and to proactively spread the gospel, but are you to join in and participate as well? I don't know.


The thing that bothers me is that so many christians sit the fence on this holiday, yet I havent heard WHY the church celebrates this holiday. I mean I see your point about every week day being named after pagan gods and other things in this world that have pagan references, but we don't celebrate each day of the week.

Now you say that Halloween is not really tied to its roots anymore and is really just a secular commercial holiday? Aren't we as Christains supposed to separate our self from worldly ways?

Now I will probably shock you, but I think the same goes for the Christmas tree and the easterbunny. I mean really where in scripture are those things. And actually in Dueteronomy or Numbers I think there is a scripture describing the Christmas tree and says DO NOT do this.

I don't think by not celebrating a pagan holiday that we hand over one of the Lord's days to the enemy. That would mean that we would have to really keep track of every pagan holiday and make sure we had a counter holiday just to keep that day.

And since this is the parenting forum, do Christian parents really think it is a good idea to even start our kids in believing in Santa Clause, the Easterbunny or Halloween, when they are unbiblical, and do not have christian roots. What is the point?

So I invoke the WWJD on this one and let you all make your own decisions and now step down off my soap box *stepping down and tripping on shoe lace*. Sorry for the rant.

Now I typed all of this in love and if you read it as me yelling it, remember, I typed it in a whisper.

God be with you
-d

that passage you invoke about Christmas trees is clearly about making an idol. And if you are offering burnt offerings and or worshipping your Christmas tree. You really shouldnt be doing that.

I think our cultures use of halloween, by participation is a great way to share the gospel. By showing the love of Christ, by being the most fun, and best, and utilize that to get the gospel out.

[Gracie Love]

While your at it why not chunk out the tooth fairy, fairy tales, and anything else that might allow kids a bit of imagination and innocence.

My sister did away with Santa and the easter bunny too. I think that doing this takes away from a childs innocence by taking away things to believe in. Kids generally believe in God no matter what, but give them something to believe in that is make believe and it fosters the development of their imaginations and belief that their is good in this world.

A pastor said something to me one time while I don't like 99.9% of what he said because the majority of it was mind control and heresy, but this made since and wasn't heresy.

"We are in this world even though we are not of this world."

Meaning we live here and we do our work as christians here, but we are of different standards, God's standards.

We are not worshiping the tree, santa, easter bunny,the eggs, or the toothfairy. These are not tools of satan.

And while we are on the subject of satan and what is his...
the Devil is given TOO MUCH CREDIT FOR OUR OWN SINFUL NATURE.
THE DEVIL DIDN'T MAKE ME DO IT, i AM A SINNER. That goes for Christmas, halloween, easter, valentines, st patricks and any other holiday that had pagan starts but are not even nearly tied to there pagan roots anymore.

[Gracie Love]

Sorry I know that seemed a little bit anger and I am sorry. I meant what I said but not the tone of what I said. Please forgive me.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by walkwjc

And since this is the parenting forum, do Christian parents really think it is a good idea to even start our kids in believing in Santa Clause, the Easterbunny or Halloween, when they are unbiblical, and do not have christian roots. What is the point?

Unbiblical =/= anti-Biblical

There is nothing with doing things that are unbiblical. There is nothing biblical about using a computer.

Who cares about the roots?

I see no reason to reject something simply because it does not have Christian roots.

[Ted Logan]

Here's what I wrote for our Church newsletter:

Originally Posted by Aaron's article

Is Halloween a Christian Holiday?
By Aaron Adams

We’re all familiar with Halloween. Kids dress up, families make jack-o-lanterns, and older brothers try to scare the little ones. Some Christians (myself included) have chosen not to participate in the festivities. But, what if I told you that Halloween was once a Christian holiday? Many people already know that our major Christian feasts are celebrated on the same days that other religions have celebrations. This should be no surprise, since there were feast days for every single god in many cultures, and the Roman pagan religion alone had thousands of gods. The coincidence of All Saints’ Day (Nov. 1st) and the ancient Irish pagan festival of Samhain (Oct. 31st) is probably unintentional.

What is All Saints’ Day? During the early days of Christianity, people who professed faith in Christ were often tortured and murdered for their devotion by the Roman Empire. In most cases, churches would commemorate their own martyrs on the anniversaries of their deaths. This was the beginning of saints’ days. Three saints, in particular, have enduring feast days that have been co-opted by commercial America: St. Patrick, the evangelist who took the Gospel to Ireland, St. Valentine, who wrote letters of encouragement to his congregation from prison while awaiting his execution, and St. Nicholas of Myra, who (legend has it) paid the dowry of a poor family so that their daughters could marry. In 2004, very few people realize that St. Patrick’s Day and St. Valentine’s Day are holidays celebrating the preaching of the Gospel in dangerous times, or that the legend of Santa Claus (“Sinter Klaas” is Dutch for St. Nicholas) began with a bishop who slipped a gift through a window to make sure two girls were able to marry (perhaps the origin of the “Discretionary Fund,” as well?). My family celebrated St. Nicholas Day on Dec. 6th, but the convoluted fact of our culture is that most don’t distinguish between Christmas and St. Nicholas Day anymore, and St. Nicholas has become a magical, secular, toy-toting fairy tale. A similar thing has happened to All Saints’ Day.

When the number of Christian martyrs became vast, and churches began to celebrate the faithful departed of other congregations as well as their own, it was quickly decided that a single feast should be set aside to celebrate all the Christians who have gone before us. That feast became All Saints’ and All Souls’ Day (Nov. 1st and 2nd, respectively). In England, however, the word “Saint” faded from vocabulary as Latin was replaced by English. In its place was the word “Hallow,” which means “Holy.” We use the word every week in the Lord’s Prayer. While we today call Nov. 1st “All Saints’ Day,” it was previously known as “All Hallows’ Day” or “The Feast of All Hallows.” Just like Christmas Eve, the night before All Hallows’ Day had it’s own name: All Hallows’ Eve (Or All Hallows’ E’en). That is, Halloween is the name for a celebration of all the Christian men and women who have gone before us, especially those who have died for their faith.

In Ireland, however, it happens that the night before All Saints’ was also the day of Samhain, their pagan festival wherein they attempted to prevent spirit possession by dressing up in scary outfits and cause mass destruction to property. Why did these festivals coincide? Considering the vastness of the Roman Empire, and the fact that feast days occurred in any particular religion day-by-day, it seems quite likely that All Saints’ Day would have coincided with someone else’s morbid celebration. Stranger is the fact that the trick in “Trick-or-Treat” comes from the Irish pagan festival, while the treat comes from an early Christian All Saints’ tradition, where the faithful would beg door-to-door for bread cakes, and then would say prayers for the donors’ departed for each cake collected. In short, Halloween is a confusing mish-mash of Christian and pagan traditions.

Today, we face a crisis of identity in the American churches. If we are not aware of the history of the Christian Church, we are sure to make the same mistakes that our ancestors did. We have a wealth of stories to tell, from the amazing way that St. Patrick went from slave to bishop and gave the Gospel to all of Ireland, to the inspiring story of St. Valentine who, knowing he would be beheaded on February 14th, wrote to his congregation to take heart and know that Jesus loved them. The purpose of holidays is to remember those stories, to remember who we are as Christians. We wear green to remember St. Patrick returning to the land of his slavery as an evangelist, because the word “Ireland” means “Green land.” We send notes of love to one another to remember that St. Valentine did the same for his flock. And if we are to celebrate anything on Halloween, we can remember our roots at that time, and celebrate all those who have paved the way for us, to spread the Gospel even when it’s dangerous, as it was for Martin Luther who, on October 31, 1519, began the Protestant Reformation. What shall Christians do on Halloween? We should pray, and remember. Some will choose to trick-or-treat, and some will choose not to do so. As Christians, we are free to make those choices. But let’s remember that All Saints’ Day and Halloween began as a way to remember those who died to tell others about the Gospel, so that we could know about Jesus. We can reclaim our holidays by using the traditions associated with them to tell the story of the Christian faith.

[bobthecockroach]

to Aaron Adams.

for All Saint's Day.

[walkwjc]

Originally Posted by nckcool_11

walkwjc pretty much said it all...

Thanks, but I far from said it all. I am as lost about this stuff as anyone and am searching. I have my convictions and search the scripture for direction, but a lot of what we do today as christians lies mainly in church history.

BillSPreston said:
that passage you invoke about Christmas trees is clearly about making an idol. And if you are offering burnt offerings and or worshipping your Christmas tree. You really shouldnt be doing that.

I think our cultures use of halloween, by participation is a great way to share the gospel. By showing the love of Christ, by being the most fun, and best, and utilize that to get the gospel out.

No, I don't make burnt offerings(unless you count my cooking). I just feel that if the pagans did it, and the world does it why should we? And I also think that, if you are going to use halloween to share the gospel, that is great, but you should try not to do anything that resembles paganism(the dressing up ect).

Gracie Love said:
While your at it why not chunk out the tooth fairy, fairy tales, and anything else that might allow kids a bit of imagination and innocence.

My sister did away with Santa and the easter bunny too. I think that doing this takes away from a childs innocence by taking away things to believe in. Kids generally believe in God no matter what, but give them something to believe in that is make believe and it fosters the development of their imaginations and belief that their is good in this world.

A pastor said something to me one time while I don't like 99.9% of what he said because the majority of it was mind control and heresy, but this made since and wasn't heresy.

"We are in this world even though we are not of this world."

Meaning we live here and we do our work as christians here, but we are of different standards, God's standards.

We are not worshiping the tree, santa, easter bunny,the eggs, or the toothfairy. These are not tools of satan.

And while we are on the subject of satan and what is his...
the Devil is given TOO MUCH CREDIT FOR OUR OWN SINFUL NATURE.
THE DEVIL DIDN'T MAKE ME DO IT, i AM A SINNER. That goes for Christmas, halloween, easter, valentines, st patricks and any other holiday that had pagan starts but are not even nearly tied to there pagan roots anymore.

I knew I would open the proverbial can of worms. Gracie, letting your kids grow their imagination is great. My daughter is a great artist and has enormous amounts of imagination. But she doesn't need to believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny to know that "there is good in this world". She is surrounded by good people and a knowledge of God that assures her that there is good.

"We are in this world even though we are not of this world."

Meaning we live here and we do our work as christians here, but we are of different standards, God's standards.

Exactly. Are we of different standards only to appear identical to the world in God's eyes?

We are not worshiping the tree, santa, easter bunny,the eggs, or the toothfairy. These are not tools of satan.

Why is it so hard for us to give them up for God if we are so unattached?

Bobthecockroach said:

Unbiblical =/= anti-Biblical

There is nothing with doing things that are unbiblical. There is nothing biblical about using a computer.

Who cares about the roots?

I see no reason to reject something simply because it does not have christian roots.

But why embrace it when it has pagan roots?



Thank you Aaron Adams. You are very wise indeed. I didn't know very much about the Christian roots of Hallowe'en or why the church celibrates it. It still has nothing to do with witches and dressing up and has a clash of pagan traditions thrown in, so I assume you would have to be very careful, as a church, how you celebrated this holiday. I think that we spread the gospel every bit as much with our actions, as we do our mouth, and can never be too careful what kind of worldly activities we engage in.

God Bless
-d

[BillSPrestonEsq]

If you want to devise a new set of names of months, days of the week, and people, then you might start to be able to make this connection that you do. Pagans use the jon. They eat, and yet we do those things. Our Christmas and holloween are so disjointed from their pagan roots as to be unrecognizable.

Furthermore, I have never seen evidence of idolatry being connected with Christmas trees, period. The scripture passage speaks of him making a wooden idol. Thats a far cry from a traditional holiday emblem.

The one holiday I am thinking of offhand which has no pagan roots of which i am aware would sicken the man whose name it bears. St. Patricks day. The three leaf clover (legendarily of course) was how patty explained the trinity to the king of Ireland. I cant think of a pagan holiday there.

However, the days of the week are named for gods, a much more direct connection to paganism.

[walkwjc]

Furthermore, I have never seen evidence of idolatry being connected with Christmas trees, period. The scripture passage speaks of him making a wooden idol. Thats a far cry from a traditional holiday emblem.

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

I am not a hebrew scholar(or any scholar) and do not know how well this is translated, but word for word, it pretty much describes a Christmas tree. Now after reading a couple other translations, and doing some comparisons I can see that it talks about an Idol. What is the definition of an Idol then? And it also says 'learn not the way of the heathen'. Yet another 'do not as the world does'?

If you want to devise a new set of names of months, days of the week, and people, then you might start to be able to make this connection that you do.

I don't celibrate, or have a festival celebrating the days of the week or the months. I think this falls under Gracie's Quote "We are in this world even though we are not of this world."

Pagans use the jon. They eat, and yet we do those things. Our Christmas and holloween are so disjointed from their pagan roots as to be unrecognizable.

Yes I get this, Bill, but like I said above, Why do we participate, why is the Christmas tree a part of our tradition. Why do we still dress up and trick or treat, and hide eggs from the easter bunny? Why are these part of our Christian tradition? I mean, up until last year, I celebrated Halloween, and had a Christmas tree and hid eggs for my kids to find on easter, but my convictions and study tell me that it was wrong. But I may be wrong.

Peace be with you
-d

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by walkwjc

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

I am not a hebrew scholar(or any scholar) and do not know how well this is translated, but word for word, it pretty much describes a Christmas tree. Now after reading a couple other translations, and doing some comparisons I can see that it talks about an Idol. What is the definition of an Idol then? And it also says 'learn not the way of the heathen'. Yet another 'do not as the world does'?

I don't celibrate, or have a festival celebrating the days of the week or the months. I think this falls under Gracie's Quote "We are in this world even though we are not of this world." Yes I get this, Bill, but like I said above, Why do we participate, why is the Christmas tree a part of our tradition. Why do we still dress up and trick or treat, and hide eggs from the easter bunny? Why are these part of our Christian tradition? I mean, up until last year, I celebrated Halloween, and had a Christmas tree and hid eggs for my kids to find on easter, but my convictions and study tell me that it was wrong. But I may be wrong.

Peace be with you
-d

That description is a clear description of making an idol. If it were a Christmas tree, the origins of the Christmas tree would be from semitic regions. They are Germanic.

We are by ancestry, Pagans. Every aspect of our culture is tied back to the paganism of our forefathers if you dig far enough. To not do as the pagans do would entail renaming every day of the week.

[walkwjc]

ok

-d