[Dice]

A few days before the theology board closed, I had decided to leave, and did so silently. It wasn't because of any specific situation, but because I had noticed everything that I suppose Luke noticed. We had been losing our focus, but it wasn't like a small incident now and then that I could encourage others in stepping above, it was beyond my ability to heal.

Because of that, I often lost focus as well, and noticed things in my words that I did not want to be there, and feelings in myself after posting for a bit that I ought not be feeling. The issue was bigger than my ability to even stand as an example, so I wrote up an article stating my heart and linked to it in my signature (notice it's still there) and I left.

I left out of desire to use my life to be a blessing unto others, and my weakness in being able to properly do that here. However, alongside Luke's decision, God has been showing me things about His love and the functions of the body. It has been shaping my heart, which is still very much reflected in the article linked to in my signature, but I would like to share some thoughts on efforts to be made beyond that. This probably won't come out very organized, but I'm just trying to share my heart.

Ephesians 4:29
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

There are a few things in this that I see. First, I know very well when I have sought to encourage and build up another person or not. It is something I pusposely set out to do, I look to understand their situation and what they need and think about the words that would not only guide them, but truly bless them. When I have done it I can feel it in my heart, the effects are seen immediately in them, and ultimately both of us end up learning a lesson in love.

In this, I can see and feel a difference between those moments and the moments when I'm just pridefully trying to make what I consider knowledge or understanding to be known. It's the youthful lust of wanting to be the right one. Rather than listening and meeting them where they are at and teaching and enouraging them, I am merely telling them something.

And then there are occasionally times even worse, where I am frustrated, and just trying to knock some of my own sense into them. Rather than seeking their benefit, I am trying to fix something I have a problem with. And so there is a conviction of sorts, because when I am truly just humbly seeking others blessing and edification, I walk away having been humbled and blessed myself.

With this, I also recognize how it says to speak it according to their needs. This makes the words they need to hear dependant upon their situation. If they are truly seeking an expanded understanding of something, then they will be listening and they can be taught. But if one is set against distinctives of what I may be wishing them to accept, then my approach is different.

You don't see the pharisees in John 13 as Christ is washing feet and teaching specifics of servanthood, but Christ did show and express the need of humility to the pharisees in other places. So you see how a persons willingness changes whether we are able to teach them the distinctives of a message, or if we simply show and encourage them in the heart of that same message.

With this there is a level of humility required, to stop and set your mind on the Lord (just as Christ always did) to seek how you are to answer a person before you do. But unlike Christ our humility isn't to be merely situationally based on the person, but in honesty of our own limits of understanding; that perhaps we do not yet know how to properly build someone up regarding a paticular teaching or aspect of Christian living so that it actually benefits them.

I think here Moses in Exodus 18 serves as a nice example. We could make the same mistake as him, taking on too much responsibility for one man, but likewise we make try and take on a bigger project even within a single issue than we have wisdom to handle. We need to recognize what things we can handle on our own in the moment, and what times we may need to go find the help or counsel of others to deal with or speak to in a righteous and beneficial manner.

You can see how this may apply to theology and the limitations of how fruitful discussion/debate of it can be depending on how willing we are to listen and learn and our level of understanding to be able to accurately express and teach others our own specific beliefs. But I think it can also apply to any disagreement, or even just understanding between different cultures, worldviews and lifestyles. We must be mindful of our limitations and always seek our best ability to love each other and build each other up.

I mean the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor as ourself. Well when we are truly loving ourselves, it is when we are realizing our weaknesses, limitations and confusion and doing our best to sort out all the thoughts and emotions into reconciliation with and submission to God's law and love and grace. If we go to such extents to understand what is going on in ourselves and working through our own faults and stand in the grace and truth of God, then that is what we should be doing with others as well.

Recently I've had to set aside specifics of doctrine people werent willing to listen to so I could build them up in the heart and focus it gives me. I have had to show reservation in my own interpretations of some passages to hear what a homosexual believes they teach so that I can properly understand him and correctly guide him to truth as far as I can before entrusting the work to be finished by God Himself (see 2 Tim 2:25-26)

I have had to first come to know a buddhists perspective of God and universal law and teach him the correct one before he could understand the gospel. And when he and others have rejected the gospel I give them, I've learned to still at least teach them the goodness of grace and love so they might somehow see and taste the blessing of God's wisdom so that even if they supress it they would know He gave it to me the fruit it bears.

I believe this is God's heart. He works as a shepherd, He meets people where they are and speaks to the understanding they have. Even when rejected He shows so much grace and blesses them in so many ways aside from mere correction of their mindset. And sometimes through those blessings He often ends up teaching them even more securely then by the spoken word. This is the utilization of love and the living truth in all things, and I think we are to follow it.

Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Often when I bring this kind of stuff up people mention verses like this as reason to spout the word of God in a brash and insensitive manner. But we must understand that someones concession isn't required for it to be true that you refuted them, and we also see that even in this verse we are commanded to be encouraging with it. I've noticed the same pattern is true of all scripture; God has given us commandments of gracious speech, and scripture does not speak conflicting messages.

So, with this heart in mind, what about these boards? What is this ecumenical movement I speak of? Well quite frankly I'm not entirely sure, I do not know what the shape of it will be entirely and that is why I made this thread--to ask for help. But I just have this on my heart and I thought it right to start something, to encourage others to post with the same heart. And while I don't really know entirely how it will look, I do have some scripture to show that we need it.

Deuteronomy 6
1 These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, 2 so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the LORD your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life. 3 Hear, O Israel, and be careful to obey so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly in a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the LORD , the God of your fathers, promised you.
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

Here we see that God has commanded us to truly always speak of and encourage one another in His decrees. Is it really necessary to have so many reminders and constantly speak of them to remember them and walk in the fruitfulness and peace of righteousness? According to this passage yes it is, and looking at this I see that I fail at this responsibility a lot.

So I guess part of what I'm looking to do here is set up a way of reminding each other of how to walk in these ways. This post is kind of a start to that, but hopefully we'll be able to make something more concise but still easily understood. The article linked to in my sig may be of some use, but I'm guessing it would need some modification (to a more universal than personal expression) if we will use it for that purpose.

This passage is also important to show us the reason why such a thing would be formed. One could start an ecumenical thing such as this and the members could be arrogant, acting as though they are the only ones who understand how to rightfully love others and handle disagreements, OR they could start it and be a member of it because they realize they are so weak in those areas and need the extra reminder and help from the body of Christ. Hopefully anyone involved with this would be of the latter, and with that said...

Philippians 2
1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.

Look carefully and you will notice that there are four if's before a then. This isn't something that we formulate and set out rules to and sign up for. The word of God is already written, the Spirit of God is already within us. We are not to approach this hastily, but we are to slow down, find Him and know Him and know His love and share it with others.

This is a practice of above all in all things intentionally pursuing, becoming intimate with and being a reflection of Christ as He is ever gracious and loving with us. It is not just a bunch of posted rules we follow, and it not just a feeling that makes us warm and happy, but it is the reality of Christ living within us and stirring both tender compassion and mind of purpose as we take the time to intimately face each situation with Him by our side.

1 Corinthians 12
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

There it is, we are the body and we are united. It is not something we merely strive for, but it is something already done. We can't function without each other, and If one of us hurts, the rest hurts with them. Let us look to our Head and find out how to properly build up and heal one another. Maybe the feet are cold and need to be covered, maybe some parts are dirty and need to be washed, maybe there is a thorn in the side that needs to be tended to. We won't be aware unless we take the time to seek our Head about one another.

So, that is the heart of this ecumenical movement and here is the thread to discuss it in and link to. How can we meet others and build them up according to their need in each situation? How can we remind each other the heart of Christ and importance of love and grace? How do we take the time and look at a situation and understand our limits of our ability to make it right? How do we know when to act and when to ask? How can we love love in a way that humbles even ourselves in the sight of God's work through us?

Maybe this will become a council on CGR, maybe it will just be a reminder and a movement. I don't really know because unfortunately it's rare enough that I've never seen it truly done so that I'd know what it looks like. But for goodness sakes, we all know the verses I have shown here are just a handful of very many, how many times do we need to be told before we take it seriously? The greastest commandments are love, and yet we seem to put the least thought and discussion into finding out what the real shape of that is. So then, how about we try better?

Philippians 3:12-16
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

We already know more than we'll ever do, so let's get to the doing! I think just this thread in itself, as it is filled with the love and wisdom and ideas of many people here, could be a great tool to remind us as we check back and see what people share and discuss.

[Danny]

This is an incredibly good idea, Dan. I'm not entirely sure a "council" would be the way to go, since really, we all need to be living in this manner, not just a select few who've chosen to "join the club" (and as you made mention of, it could turn into a pride issue), but I definitely think we all need desperately to be reminded of these things on a daily basis, and to keep one another accountable concerning them. Two months without Theology isn't going to do anyone any good if all we do is sit around waiting for it to reopen, bickering amongst ourselves about non-theological issues to pass the time. Perhaps it would be good for an abbreviated version (a very, very, very...abbreviated version... ) of the first post to be made into a global announcement, with a link back to this thread? I think we need some administrative input.

[Mathijs]

I am glad you worded this.
Its something I have felt in theology a lot too, aswell as being part of it.
a lot of debates turned into a not edifying but more attacking discussion, which I am guilty of too.
some discussions were honest and truth seeking, actually a lot of discussions were, but they drifted off as they continiued. also I had the feeling there was some, how to call it? well almost nitpicking in the name of theological correctness. Of which I am guilty too.
there was this discussion I participated in, about wether or not there are insects that "go upon four [legs]"
its not that wrong, and fun too, but not really edifying.
there is nothing wrong with seeking the truth and trying to learn, and a heavy discussion is sometimes needed to get to the truth, and sometimes you might not find the ultimate answer (think about baptism and so on.) but as you said we are called to be the body of christ, so lets not "backstabb" eachother with almost pointless, not edifying and sometimes painfull discussions.
that also doesnt mean that discussions shouldnt be painfull, sometimes that is needed to find the truth.
also something I had to learn, and am still learing, is losing a discussion. or admitting the other person is right. If I cannot lose a discussion I cannot learn anything either. since I will always see myself as right.
part of the answer to our problems lies in prayer, I know that for sure.

[+Donny]

Yeah, I agree with the idea behind the post, but how would it actually work? Would this council be for accountability for itself? To encourage edifying discussion amongs its own members? Or would it be for the purpose of CGR as a whole? Again, I think your post was absolutely excellent, but I don't understand what you are suggesting.

[Dice]

Originally Posted by +Donny

Yeah, I agree with the idea behind the post, but how would it actually work? Would this council be for accountability for itself? To encourage edifying discussion amongs its own members? Or would it be for the purpose of CGR as a whole? Again, I think your post was absolutely excellent, but I don't understand what you are suggesting.

That is what this thread is to figure out. I was sharing my heart and thinking maybe we can help each other figure out the shape of how it would work in a practical manner. It may just be a concept everyone reminds each other of, and we could use this thread and update it with new insights and ideas, or if we figure out a more defined shape then it would form into something more distinct than a movement, like a council or something.

It's members wouldn't be any more special than others or anything, they'd just be people who have it on their hearts to commit to serving the boards in this paticular way, to always be encouraging others in keeping the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. Perhaps to be available as accountability if someone wishes specifically, or being available for counsel on how to keep a right heart and focus in certain situations or before approaching a paticularly difficult topic.

I've just been realizing the difference between a prophet and a teacher, and then the difference between a teacher and a pastor, according to Ephesians 4 they are different forms of leadership and all needed to build up the body into the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then in Romans 12 it speaks of the gifts of serving, encouraging and showing mercy. These gifts are to be commended and taken as seriosuly as any other, and I have been studying to find out how to do them best.

I mean there will be prophets and teachers and theologians among us, and they can lead us in understanding, sound doctrine, and fear of the Lord. But likewise there are those who are paticularly gifted in encouraging, comforting, guiding others to right attitudes towards others, patterns of conversation and tender care. I've found I'm much more passionate about these areas of the christian life than stuff like soteriology, eschatology and whatnot. In fact a major reason for my studying them was just to understand others in our differing beliefs. And so if others are like me maybe we can work together in the same way our theologians work for the good of the whole community.

The difference is instead of figuring out the interworkings of who God is, how His plan is put into effect, how grace is worked out and all that, we will study matters of the heart and how God likes to heal and restore that and our relationships that and how we can properly join Him in that work. We'll look at issues that commonly come up in relationships and/or arguments and how to work those out, and other difficult life issues and how we can understand each other and really show the love of Christ in our words.

Perhaps we could add another forum. Whereas theology talks about God's relation to man, and apologetics talks about Christianity in relation to other worldviews, this new forum would be dedicated to our interactions with others on a practical relational level and just how to love each other well in Christ. I've commonly seen our theologians reminding and teaching others to develop and apply their minds around the boards, so maybe people who share my heart can teach others how to develop and apply their hearts in a similar way.

I'm not sure, and it can't just be all my idea or something. So if you feel my heart behind this and maybe feel especially led to study into it then please share what wisdom God gives you so we can figure out the shape of this. I just know that if keeping peace and unity with each other is often difficult, there must be a way we can be intentional about being available supporting each other when we get frustrated, and ways we can teach each other to prevent that from happening. But not everyone will be specially gifted for this, it's going to come from the outflow of your heart.

[Becky]

Dan, that is amazing!

however this is done, I'd like to take part


one thing I thought of is maybe it would be of help if people were paired up to pray for eachother?

just a thought, anyways, I'll be glad to help out in any way I can,

[+Donny]

I appreciate your ideas, Mithrandir, but I think that would make it too clique-ish. The primary purpose of this is to unite the whole board, not just some group who forms a council.
I also wouldn't think another forum would be very good, as we have plenty of those.
I personally would thoroughly enjoy some sort of organized email- or CGR-based way to just discuss various thoughts and musings we may have been having over various texts. That typically yields more charitable, friendly discussion than head to head theology debates. How that would work out practically, I don't know, but that's the sort of thing I'm looking for.

[walkwjc]

I mean there will be prophets and teachers and theologians among us, and they can lead us in understanding, sound doctrine, and fear of the Lord. But likewise there are those who are paticularly gifted in encouraging, comforting, guiding others to right attitudes towards others, patterns of conversation and tender care. I've found I'm much more passionate about these areas of the christian life than stuff like soteriology, eschatology and whatnot. In fact a major reason for my studying them was just to understand others in our differing beliefs. And so if others are like me maybe we can work together in the same way our theologians work for the good of the whole community.

I agree, Dice. I don't think another forum is the answer, but something is needed in this respect. I am a newbie and have been swallowed by some theological debates more than once(still recovering) and would whole heartedly participate in a council/fellowship/accountability chain, or whatever we come up with. You are correct in your post about brotherly love. I will be praying about this and check back later with more input.

In Christ's Love
-donnie

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Danny

Two months without Theology isn't going to do anyone any good if all we do is sit around waiting for it to reopen, bickering amongst ourselves about non-theological issues to pass the time.

If that happens, I won't reopen it.

[Luke]

Obviously, I'm a supporter of Dan's ideas. That said, I think there's something fundamentally flawed about this "council" idea (of course that might be partially because I don't understand it). What I would push for, rather, is that all members be constantly reminding each other of the need to love one another and live in Christ's light. If you guys did that in fellowshipping with one another, then we would steer clear of problems like the ones we were having in Theology.

If you guys could start doing that in other forums, it would go a long way toward healing this place.

[Becky]

Luke, I think the problem is that EVERYONE WONT participate.. and if we had some people who were committed to this, it would go along way.. perhaps anyone could take part.. but you have to be committed..

I don't know really, just some thoughts.

[Becky]

anyone have any further thoughts on this whole thing?

[Benny Hicks]

I've visited some other boards since the Theology forum has been closed, and I've noticed that some forums don't allow debates at all in their theology forums, but rather have dedicated debate forums. The theology forums are dedicated to the sharing and civil discussion of ideas, not for debate. I think that is an excellent idea. Perhaps we could create a debate sub-forum, and have the main theology forum be solely for questions of opinion and non-competitive discussion.

Ben

[Becky]

is that possible? LOL!