[Thrash]

Okay, how could they exist. Where do they fit in?

We have all of the bones...whats the deal here?

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Thrash

Okay, how could they exist. Where do they fit in?

We have all of the bones...whats the deal here?

Many were wiped out by a meteor or a series of meteor crashes 65 million years ago. We know this because their fossils are aged and are found within layers of rock that are aged by a different method that matches the result. The ones that survived evolved into birds.

[Thrash]

Yeah, i know that, every 3rd grade school girl knows that. But i am more interested in what the Christian viewpoint is. Since the earth is not that old according to christians, how can this be?

also, isn't the meteor thing unproved? They have many theories.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Thrash

also, isn't the meteor thing unproved? They have many theories.

I just asked my geologist roommate!

It's pretty much accepted that it's a meteor. The reason is, there are layers of clay (all of which can be dated by various radiometric methods). All layers of clay have trace amounts of iridium. But there is this one layer of clay that has huge amounts of iridium, and it's dated to around 65 million BC.

Iridium is a really heavy element so it is found in a lot of meteors, so they're almost certain that all the iridium in this layer came from a meteor.

Also, there is a layer of ocean deposits from certain types of amoeba that cuts off at 65 million years ago.

Also there is a meteor crater at the Yucatan peninsula that seems to fit with the aforementioned data (in terms of size, which would be enough to spread iridium and cause extinctions without destroying the entire earth).

As for the Christian answer, I think it's basically "God did it."

[Awzmgd117]

christian view, there referenced in Job...the flood accounts for somethings...

this is not my area at all but thats a very limited start

[tht00]

Originally Posted by Thrash

Okay, how could they exist. Where do they fit in?

We have all of the bones...whats the deal here?

the Christian viewpoint is that the dinos were created allong with every other land animal during the (6 day) creation. with noah, a pair of every remaining dinosaurs would have been put on the ark. the flood killed and burried everything else... including dinos... thus you get fossils from the great flood. after the flood, the animals would have been released... apparently the dinosaurs didn't fair too well after the flood and most of them died... although there are accounts of them in job, which was after the flood... and there were accounts of them in much of ancient history - including dragon myths, cave drawings, etc...

hope this clears it up,
Tom

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Awzmgd117

christian view, there referenced in Job

Let's start with Behemoth:

Job 40:15
Look at Behemoth, which I made just as I made you; it eats grass like an ox. Its strength is in its loins, and its power in the muscles of its belly. It makes its tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are knit together.Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like bars of iron. "It is the first of the great acts of God-- only its Maker can approach it with the sword. For the mountains yield food for it where all the wild animals play. Under the lotus plants it lies, in the covert of the reeds and in the marsh. The lotus trees cover it for shade; the willows of the wadi surround it. Even if the river is turbulent, it is not frightened; it is confident though Jordan rushes against its mouth.

This could describe a number of existant herbivores (sounds like a rhinocerus to me). There are a few dinos that fit this description, but most of them are armored herbivores, and it is odd that the writer did not mention armored plates or horns on this beast (he does on Leviathan).

Also, of course, there is no fossil record of dino herbivores coexisting with any contemporary animals.

Up next is our good friend Leviathan:

Job 41
Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook, or press down its tongue with a cord? Can you put a rope in its nose, or pierce its jaw with a hook? Will it make many supplications to you? Will it speak soft words to you? Will it make a covenant with you to be taken as your servant forever? Will you play with it as with a bird, or will you put it on leash for your girls? Will traders bargain over it? Will they divide it up among the merchants? Can you fill its skin with harpoons, or its head with fishing spears? Lay hands on it; think of the battle; you will not do it again! Any hope of capturing it will be disappointed; were not even the gods overwhelmed at the sight of it? No one is so fierce as to dare to stir it up. Who can stand before it?

Yahweh names a lot of birds and beast in his little tirade against Job; Behemoth appears (in my opinion) to be a legend about a faraway beast from Africa (there are a lot of these legends, look at any medieval bestiary). Leviathan, however, is something different. He is also mentioned in the psalms. From the description you get a sense that he is a watery serpent (although I think it is likely that his description is another legend, based on an alligator). However, Yahweh seems rather obsessed with the creature.

There is a very good chance that Leviathan refers to myself, the serpentine demon-general of Tiamat's army. There are psalms that refer to some primeval battle between Yahweh and a being metaphorically named Rahab, as well as Leviathan.

In the Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish, the demon-goddess of the Sea was named Tiamat, and I was her general. Marduk, the hero god, defeats Tiamat and myself and creates the universe our of Tiamat's dead body. There are many, many similarities between this myth and the Genesis myth, and between Marduk and Yahweh. Marduk, for example, calls constellations into existence by speaking there names (like "Let there be light")

Hebrews borrowed many elements from Babylonian culture -- the flood myth, for example, is almost identical to two Babylonian flood myths. The Sabbath is derived from days called Shabatu, which were astrologically potent days (every week) based on the lunar god Sin (Sin is also present in other ways in Hebrew culture, such as Mt. Sinai, and the early portrayals of Yahweh as a bull-headed deity).

The point is that Leviathan is probably a pre-creation serpent demon that Yahweh defeated in battle, borrowed from Marduk's defeat of myself in the Enuma Elish. Notice in the passage where Yahweh brags about Leviathan not being able to make covenants, and other gods being unable to defeat him (Marduk was the only god who could defeat me ... and he cheated, but that's another story, don't get me started on that....)

The entire chapter, in fact, is about Leviathan, and how he is not as powerful or as divine as Yahweh (although he is much more powerful than mere humans--which is, of course, a reason why Job should be thanking Yahweh for defeating Leviathan and winning creation for humanity, as Marduk did with myself and Tiamat).

In any case, I definitely do not think Leviathan is a dino. Why would Yahweh brag about beating up a dino all the time? He seems much more significant than a beast.

...the flood accounts for somethings...

What exactly? Did Noah not collect the dinos because he couldn't fit them in his ark? Is that why there aren't any more?

But Yahweh told him to collect every creaturex2 (or depending on if it's priestly or Yahwist, x7 for the clean ones).

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by tht00

the Christian viewpoint is that the dinos were created allong with every other land animal during the (6 day) creation. with noah, a pair of every remaining dinosaurs would have been put on the ark.

How on earth do you think he fit them on the ark. The ark is about as big as a cruise liner.

Apologists already have enough trouble fitting all the non-exinct animals into the ark; I've seen many of them resort to post-flood rapid evolution to explain this.

thus you get fossils from the great flood. after the flood, the animals would have been released... apparently the dinosaurs didn't fair too well after the flood and most of them died... although there are accounts of them in job, which was after the flood...and there were accounts of them in much of ancient history - including dragon myths, cave drawings, etc...

What year do you think the flood happened in? I've seen as early as 5000 BC and as late as 2500 BC. There were civilizations at both of those dates that left records, and none of their records mention gigantic village-sized dragon creatures. They do mention horses, oxen, sheep, pigs, dogs, etc.

Also, what cave drawings are you referring to? (Cave drawings are thousands and thousands of years old ... and none of them are drawings of dinosaurs).

[tht00]

Originally Posted by Qingu

This could describe a number of existant herbivores (sounds like a rhinocerus to me). There are a few dinos that fit this description, but most of them are armored herbivores, and it is odd that the writer did not mention armored plates or horns on this beast (he does on Leviathan).

a couple things... the description of 'behemoth' is rather extrodinary. you get a sense that this thing is huge... and there is one thing that would discount this from being any 'modern' herbivore:

"He moves his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit." (Job 40:17 NKJV)

last i checked, a rhino didn't have a cedar tree-sized tail... or even something that could be compared to it; its tail looks pretty wimpy, actually...

http://www.honoluluzoo.org/enrichment_kruger.htm

Originally Posted by Qingu

The point is that Leviathan is probably a pre-creation serpent demon that Yahweh defeated in battle, borrowed from Marduk's defeat of myself in the Enuma Elish. Notice in the passage where Yahweh brags about Leviathan not being able to make covenants, and other gods being unable to defeat him (Marduk was the only god who could defeat me ... and he cheated, but that's another story, don't get me started on that....)

The entire chapter, in fact, is about Leviathan, and how he is not as powerful or as divine as Yahweh (although he is much more powerful than mere humans--which is, of course, a reason why Job should be thanking Yahweh for defeating Leviathan and winning creation for humanity, as Marduk did with myself and Tiamat).

when i read the passage... its clear that leviathan is another creation of God. not a rival or the such. its clear that Job knew the creatures that God was talking about and God was displaying his glory though His creation.

10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me. (Job 41 NIV)

10If you can't hold your own against his glowering visage,
how, then, do you expect to stand up to me?
11Who could confront me and get by with it?
I'm in charge of all this--I run this universe! (Job 41 MSG paraphrase)

its not a matter of, 'i'm better than him', its -- 'look, this is my creation. i made it for my glory and my purpose. if you one can't confront a fraction of my creation, who can confront me?'

Originally Posted by Qingu

Hebrews borrowed many elements from Babylonian culture -- the flood myth, for example, is almost identical to two Babylonian flood myths. The Sabbath is derived from days called Shabatu, which were astrologically potent days (every week) based on the lunar god Sin (Sin is also present in other ways in Hebrew culture, such as Mt. Sinai, and the early portrayals of Yahweh as a bull-headed deity).

how can you be so sure that the hebrews borrowed from the babylonians? because a couple, left-wing professors told you so? seems to me that the babylonians borrowed from the hebrew culture, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by Qingu

What exactly? Did Noah not collect the dinos because he couldn't fit them in his ark? Is that why there aren't any more?

the dinos went with him. thats a given... what we don't know is how they ended up after the flood. apparently, not very well.

Originally Posted by Qingu

How on earth do you think he fit them on the ark. The ark is about as big as a cruise liner.

Apologists already have enough trouble fitting all the non-exinct animals into the ark; I've seen many of them resort to post-flood rapid evolution to explain this.

if you want to talk about the flood and the size of the ark, open up another thread and we'll discuss it there. it is its own topic, and i don't have the time to cover this one right now.

Originally Posted by Qingu

What year do you think the flood happened in? I've seen as early as 5000 BC and as late as 2500 BC. There were civilizations at both of those dates that left records, and none of their records mention gigantic village-sized dragon creatures. They do mention horses, oxen, sheep, pigs, dogs, etc.

keep in mind that according to the bible, everything was wiped out by the flood. all civilizations afterwords came from the decendants of noah (his 3 sons). dates of civilizations that are estimated to be back that far may not be as accurate as you think.

Originally Posted by Qingu

Also, what cave drawings are you referring to? (Cave drawings are thousands and thousands of years old ... and none of them are drawings of dinosaurs).

yeah... and this is just plain wrong.
http://billknell.tripod.com/alien/dino.html
i'm not too sure about the recent photos... i picked it because it had a nice display of the cave drawings and engravings...

this site has a couple of examples too: http://www.geocities.com/tasosmit2001/evidences.htm

and this site has a nice text rundown of dino-human coexistance evidence: http://www.dinosaur-extinction.com/

[sgary]

Originally Posted by Thrash

Yeah, i know that, every 3rd grade school girl knows that. But i am more interested in what the Christian viewpoint is. Since the earth is not that old according to christians, how can this be?

also, isn't the meteor thing unproved? They have many theories.

Not all christians believe the 6000 year theory, I for one do not. I also do not agree with Qingu, about the Babylonians "creation myths" being the model for the Christian's God. (it's the other way around)

I do however agree with Qingu, (but not too much) that the earth is millions of years old.

While looking at the book of Job, we shouldn't forget that Job's bum friends (wife too) run their mouths for about 37 chapters, then Job says: I've done nothing wrong. Then the MAYBE bet between God, & satan is called off, because Job tells everyone to take a hike, except God. (should have done that from the start, because Job realizes, we are nothing without God)

The behemoth in 40.15 is NOT a hippopotamus, they have little twisty pig type tails. But the "tail like a cedar" is a huge tail. We have many bones to prove this tail was real.

The leviathan in 41.1 could be a giant crocodile, we have many bones to prove this also, and we still have little brother croc with us today. (we don't know how old he is, could be millions) The bones don't lie.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by tht00

a couple things... the description of 'behemoth' is rather extrodinary. you get a sense that this thing is huge... and there is one thing that would discount this from being any 'modern' herbivore:

"He moves his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit." (Job 40:17 NKJV)

last i checked, a rhino didn't have a cedar tree-sized tail... or even something that could be compared to it; its tail looks pretty wimpy, actually...

That's because you're using an archaic King James translation, I have "It makes its tail stiff like a cedar." It's tail is not as big as a cedar ... in fact the more accurate translation doesn't even mention it being huge.

when i read the passage... its clear that leviathan is another creation of God. not a rival or the such. its clear that Job knew the creatures that God was talking about and God was displaying his glory though His creation.

That is because you read the passage and you have this preconceived notion of Yahweh being a creator ex nihilo. Judaism did not share your belief, many Jews today do not share it (some Christians do not either). God did not create the world ex nihilo in Genesis; there was water there before he started. And there are plenty of references in Job and in the Psalms to a battle between Yahweh and this Leviathan and Rahab (aka Tiamat).

Also, your italicized parts are not in the Bible ... just in case anyone reading this gets confused. I don't see why I need to infer those additions; my interpretation makes more sense Biblically and historically.

how can you be so sure that the hebrews borrowed from the babylonians? because a couple, left-wing professors told you so? seems to me that the babylonians borrowed from the hebrew culture, not the other way around.

That is because you are ignorant of history and archaelogy. There were no Hebrews before 1300 BC. The Atrahasis story is probably from 1400 BC, the Gilgamesh story is probably from 2000 BC. Bible dates from around 1000 to 300 BC.

Do you have any evidence that the Babylonians derived their stories from the Hebrews, who did not even exist for most of their history?

the dinos went with him. thats a given... what we don't know is how they ended up after the flood. apparently, not very well.

How did they fit?

if you want to talk about the flood and the size of the ark, open up another thread and we'll discuss it there. it is its own topic, and i don't have the time to cover this one right now.

I think you're copping out. How did they fit in the ark the size of a cruise liner? I don't see how this even merits discussion; the Bible gives cubit measurements and we know how long a cubit is. You are asserting that Noah fit every species of dinosaur into an ark the size of a cruise liner.

Maybe the dinos were phase-shifted into other dimensions.

keep in mind that according to the bible, everything was wiped out by the flood. all civilizations afterwords came from the decendants of noah (his 3 sons). dates of civilizations that are estimated to be back that far may not be as accurate as you think.

Okay, do you have any evidence that my dates are not accurate? I have palace records, astrologer records (which are cross-references), artifacts that are radiometrically dated....

And you conveniently refrained from giving a date to the flood.

yeah... and this is just plain wrong.
http://billknell.tripod.com/alien/dino.html
i'm not too sure about the recent photos... i picked it because it had a nice display of the cave drawings and engravings...

That is the stupidest website I have ever seen.

this site has a couple of examples too: http://www.geocities.com/tasosmit2001/evidences.htm

This website has pictures of Greek artifacts. Are you suggesting there were live dinosaurs in Greece? I see snakes on pots. And it's rather odd the Greeks didn't mention dinosaurs anywhere else.

and this site has a nice text rundown of dino-human coexistance evidence: http://www.dinosaur-extinction.com/

That is the second stupidest website I have ever seen.

Normally I don't even bother with looking at websites, mostly because I can't argue with the website-owner, but also because it encourages lazy debaters like yourself to point me to other arguments when you cannot defend your own claims. I saw pictures of composite monsters and serpents, not dinosaurs.

How do you explain the fact that there are absolutely no records, pictorial or otherwise, of any dinosaur, ever, in any civilization (compared to the thousands of records and pictures of animals extant at the time).

How do you explain the complete lack of dinosaur fossils on the same strata of earth as human and contemporary animal fossils?

How do you explain Noah fitting them into his ark?

Why would they die off after the flood?

Why would God create the world in such a way that what you are suggesting is completely implausible compared to the scientific theory, when he is "not the author of confusion?"

Do you have any answers based on evidence or are you just making a bunch of arguments from ignorance with the vague hope that people will believe your possible explanations? Perhaps the dinosaurs disappeared in puffs of smoke when fairies waved their wands at them.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by sgary

Not all christians believe the 6000 year theory, I for one do not. I also do not agree with Qingu, about the Babylonians "creation myths" being the model for the Christian's God. (it's the other way around)

Explain how it's the other way around if there were no Hebrews at the time the Babylonian stories were written.

The behemoth in 40.15 is NOT a hippopotamus, they have little twisty pig type tails. But the "tail like a cedar" is a huge tail. We have many bones to prove this tail was real.

Actually, you got me thinking, this could be another reference to Babylonian stories. Gilgamesh and Enkidu fight this "bull of heaven" creature guarding a magic cedar forest. The bull of heaven hurts Enkidu with his giant tail. The tail might be a reference to the bull of heaven; however, note that in the modern translation it just says it's tail is like a cedar tree, not that it's as big as a cedar tree.

Also, what bones are you talking about?

The leviathan in 41.1 could be a giant crocodile, we have many bones to prove this also, and we still have little brother croc with us today. (we don't know how old he is, could be millions) The bones don't lie.

What are you babbling about? Show me the Leviathan bones.

[beanbag]

according to my jr. high pastor, the average dinosaur was the size of a sheep. apparently, some scholars think everything (humans and animals both) was smaller in the pre-flood days.

also. it makes sense that hebrew stories and babylonian tales parallel each other, because as I've stated elsewhere, the jews and the babylonians come from the same ancestors. therefore, there are going to be cultural as well as other similarities within the semitic peoples.

[Qingu]

For those of you arguing that Job refers to actual dinosaurs and not exaggerated legends of beasts, let's look at a medieval bestiary and how accurately they define beasts of the same era:

THE PANTHER


A many coloured animal, handsome and gentle, whose only enemy is the dragon. When he roars, he exhales a sweet odour which draws all animals to him except the dragon. The dragon retreats to his hole and lies stiff with fear, as if dead.

THE HYENA


The hyena should not be eaten because it is dirty and has two natures, male and female. Both sexual organs are clearly shown. It dwells in the tombs of the dead and devours human bodies. Its spine is rigid and it must move its whole body in order to turn.

THE SATYR


The satyr, like the ape, has some similarities with man. He is partly like a goat with a beard, horns, and broad tail. His rather human body is covered with shaggy hair. He holds his thyrsus or wand, used in his lustful and disorderly revels. His face is quite attractive and he makes pantomime gestures.

THe PHEONIX


The bird rises from its ashes, a sign of the Resurrection.

A DRAGON STRANGLES AN ELEPHANT


Snakes are reptiles. Many are poisonous. The Dragon is bigger than all snakes.

The Bible's descriptions are in the same vein as any bestiary's descriptions of faraway beasts. Some creatures, such as Leviathan, take on a mythological significance (like the pheonix). This is simply the level of accuracy that ancient people recorded creatures with. They are not dinosaurs.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by beanbag

according to my jr. high pastor, the average dinosaur was the size of a sheep. apparently, some scholars think everything (humans and animals both) was smaller in the pre-flood days.

Okay, tell me how you'd fit two brachiosauruses into a cruise liner.

Once you figured that out, tell me how you'd fit the other hundred species of dinosaurs larger than a car.

Why would they be smaller in pre-flood days; is there any evidence for this (Biblical or otherwise)?

also. it makes sense that hebrew stories and babylonian tales parallel each other, because as I've stated elsewhere, the jews and the babylonians come from the same ancestors.

The Akkadians were a Semitic people that invaded Sumer in about 2400 BC. Their culture comingled with Sumerian culture to create Babylonian culture.

The Hebrews did not enter the scene until a millenium later.

therefore, there are going to be cultural as well as other similarities within the semitic peoples.

Yes, they also borrowed from the contemporary Canaanites. Later they borrowed from the Zoroastrians, although they were persian, not semitic.

What exactly are you asserting, and why, and how are you planning on supporting it?