[ICTHUS]

A Reading from the Holy Gospel According to St. Mark

35Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. "Teacher," they said, "we want you to do for us whatever we ask."
36"What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
37They replied, "Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory."
38"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?" 39"We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared." 41When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ!

My question is this: The baptism that Christ refers to in v. 39 - is it His death and burial?? That would seem to correspond with Romans 6:4, that all of us who have been baptised into Christ are in fact baptised into His death and buried with Him in His tomb

[+Donny]

The Holy Spirit? I don't know, I would guess it is related to His death, because of the reference to the cup in the garden, though.

[Ridley's Own]

Christ is turning the notion of 'power' on its head. True power, he says, isn't being a ruler, but being ready to die for others (hence the reference to Christ's cup and baptism). I think v. 42 - end illustrates this.

[sgary]

"The cup" = inward sufferings?., "the baptism" = outward sufferings?.(more study needed) sgary

[ICTHUS]

Charles Wesley's explanatory notes on vv. 38

Ye know not what ye ask — Ye know not that ye ask for sufferings, which must needs pave the way to glory.

The cup — Of inward; the baptism - Of outward sufferings. Our Lord was filled with sufferings within, and covered with them without.

[ICTHUS]

Calvin seems to think that Baptism refers to suffering too

Originally Posted by John Calvin, who is always right

In the word baptism the force of the metaphor is very evident; for we know that by baptism believers are instructed to deny themselves, (Matthew 45:24) to crucify the old man, (Romans 6:6) and, in short, to bear the cross. It is uncertain if, by the word cup, (poth>rion,) our Lord alluded to the mystery of the Holy Supper; but as it had not yet come into use, I choose to interpret it more simply as denoting the measure of afflictions which God appoints to every one. For as it is his right to lay on every one his own burden according to his pleasure, in the same manner as a householder distributes and allots the portions of the members of his family, so He is said to give them a cup to drink. 6

These words contain no ordinary consolation for alleviating the bitterness of the cross, when in the cross Christ associates himself with us. And what could be more desirable than to have every thing in common with the Son of God? for thus are those things which at first sight appear to be deadly made to yield to us salvation and life. On the other hand, how shall he be reckoned among the disciples of Christ, who desires to be wholly exempted from the cross? For such person refuses to submit to the baptism of Christ, which is nothing else than to withdraw from the earliest lessons. 7 Now whenever baptism is mentioned, let us recollect that we were baptized on this condition, and for this purpose, that the cross may be attached to our shoulders.

The boast made with so much confidence by John and James, that they are prepared to drink the cup, manifests the presumption of the flesh; for, when we are beyond the reach of darts, we think nothing impossible. And not long afterwards, the melancholy result exposed their rashness; but in so far it was good in them that, when they were free to make a choice, they presented themselves to bear the cross.

23. You shall indeed drink my cup. As they were disciples, it was proper that they should be assimilated to their Master. Christ warns them of what will take place, that they may be prepared to endure it with patience; and, in the persons of two men, he addresses all his followers. For though many believers die a natural death, and without violence or shedding of blood, yet it is common to all of them, as Paul informs us, (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18,) to be conformed to the image of Christ; and, therefore,
during their whole life, they are sheep appointed to the slaughter, (Romans 8:36.)

What's with Calvin referencing the mythical 45th Chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel?

[Mike Graham]

Doctrines which start with "P" are inherently wrong, and lead to adding to God's word. John Calvin was a Paedobaptist, he invented Matt 45. The Prosperity gospel teacher Bruce Wilkinson invented Jude ch6 for similar reasons. They do this even for unrelated, valid issues. Postmillenialism would be another good example.

Excluded are doctrines getting their name directly from the Bible or which are abbreviated PP, for obvious reasons.


(It obviously means Matt 16.)

[sgary]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

Calvin seems to think that Baptism refers to suffering too



What's with Calvin referencing the mythical 45th Chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel?

When the two, (John and James) say "we are able" (M'r.10. 39 KJV) ="We can" we can compare,( with James Acts 12.2) only tradition with John, they say he was "boiled in oil"

As for the 45th chapter of M't. it is a fragment in the British museum, with more codex(s) attributed to him, they think? sgary

[sgary]

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

Doctrines which start with "P" are inherently wrong, and lead to adding to God's word. John Calvin was a Paedobaptist, he invented Matt 45. The Prosperity gospel teacher Bruce Wilkinson invented Jude ch6 for similar reasons. They do this even for unrelated, valid issues. Postmillenialism would be another good example.

Excluded are doctrines getting their name directly from the Bible or which are abbreviated PP, for obvious reasons.


(It obviously means Matt 16.)

I like Mike's better ,than "Calvins" idea. sgary

Yes, I know you like Mikes idea better than Calvin's, but I can edit your posts to make them say whatever I want!!! HAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAAHA *evil moderator laugh*

~ Ryan

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by sgary

When the two, (John and James) say "we are able" (M'r.10. 39 KJV) ="We can" we can compare,( with James Acts 12.2) only tradition with John, they say he was "boiled in oil"

As for the 45th chapter of M't. it is a fragment in the British museum, with more codex(s) attributed to him, they think? sgary

Dude, why are your posts always so freaking confusing?

[sgary]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

Dude, why are your posts always so freaking confusing?

I just try to use as many bibles/manuscripts as I can, mixed with slow fingers, it don't always come out right. (sorry)