[joshaber]

This has probably been done to death, but the forum search is quite pointless when it said my entire search was composed of commonly used words. Anyways...

Firstly, am I correct in thinking that Calvinists believe that God predestines everything?

If that is the case, then how do Calvinists justify James 1:13-14? Does God predestine us to sin?

Also, what is the point of praying if God has predestined everything?

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by joshaber

This has probably been done to death, but the forum search is quite pointless when it said my entire search was composed of commonly used words. Anyways...

Firstly, am I correct in thinking that Calvinists believe that God predestines everything?

If that is the case, then how do Calvinists justify James 1:13-14? Does God predestine us to sin?

Also, what is the point of praying if God has predestined everything?

Ok, this is what I have gathered from my debates against Calvinism. (me responding to these questions never goes well since I'm not Calvinist)

Educated non-Calvinist's answer to question posed to Calvinists. Beware of Bias...

1. yes, that's exactly what they believe.
2. yes, though I think a Calvinist would word it more that God just doesn't predestine them to do good. And then we just naturally do evil. Either way, yes, He does according to Calvinism.
3. Because the Bible commands us to. Though if you didn't pray, it would be because you were predestined not to. But I don't care to get into that.

[Awzmgd117]

i too am not calvinist...i have a problem with limited atonement for starters...but thats off topic...before this goes further, a fair notice, beware the road your walking...these debates on the topic tend to get ugly. why i dont' know when there are so many more important issues...

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Awzmgd117

i have a problem with limited atonement for starters

As far as I understand it, Limited Atonement (Christ's death was sufficient for all, but effective only for the elect) is the one point of Calvinism that no Christian should have a problem with. Christianity excludes universalism, which has always seemed to me to be the only other alternative to Limited Atonement. I suppose I could be misrepresenting LA (which would be sort of bad, considering I call myself a Calvinist... haha), though.

In His love,
Nate

[ThePlaidRanger]

Originally Posted by joshaber

This has probably been done to death, but the forum search is quite pointless when it said my entire search was composed of commonly used words. Anyways...

Firstly, am I correct in thinking that Calvinists believe that God predestines everything?

Yes.

If that is the case, then how do Calvinists justify James 1:13-14? Does God predestine us to sin?

I think the point of what James is saying here ties in well with something that Derek Webb said at the concert I was at last weekend. The point he was making was essentially that, as Christians, anything that happens in our lives is a blessing from God - even if it serves to entirely destroy our lives, because even that is only a reminder of the real nature of the Christian life, that we need to be completely reliant on God. In the same manner here, I think James is saying that what seems to be temptation is not God tempting us, but our fallen nature seeking to misuse God's blessings.

Also, what is the point of praying if God has predestined everything?

Well, first of all, we are commanded to - that is reason enough.
Second, we could as well ask, what is the purpose of faith if we are saved by grace - faith, like prayer, is one of the means through which God chooses to work.
Third, and most important:
Prayer does not make God do things. Prayer does not make God change his mind. (Numbers 23:19) What, then, does prayer do? It may be profitable to look at the Lord's Prayer (I don't have the time at the moment to work up a complete exegesis of it - sorry ) - all the things we are taught to pray for are things that are already promised.
It is my opinion, then, that prayer is for the purpose of communication with God, primarily as a means of our sanctification, where we are taught to desire and love the promises of God, and see ourselves truly in relation to Him.

[Nate]

Or perhaps, if it is applicable, Gavin could post the PM in which I explained Limited Atonement to him... 'cause it goes into more detail. I'm not sure that it really relates to the thread, though. Sorry for going off-topic (that's why I don't visit Theology much; I can't stay on-topic long enough to stay involved in a debate).

In His love,
Nate

[Nate]

Originally Posted by ThePlaidRanger

The point he was making was essentially that, as Christians, anything that happens in our lives is a blessing from God - even if it serves to entirely destroy our lives, because even that is only a reminder of the real nature of the Christian life, that we need to be completely reliant on God.

Eek. That's a tough pill to swallow. I might go so far as to say that everything that happens in our lives is ultimately for our good (see Rom. 8:28), but I personally think you're going too far when you say that everything is a blessing in and of itself.

In His love,
Nate

[Awzmgd117]

Originally Posted by Nate

As far as I understand it, Limited Atonement (Christ's death was sufficient for all, but effective only for the elect) is the one point of Calvinism that no Christian should have a problem with. Christianity excludes universalism, which has always seemed to me to be the only other alternative to Limited Atonement. I suppose I could be misrepresenting LA (which would be sort of bad, considering I call myself a Calvinist... haha), though.

In His love,
Nate

as its been explained to me, limited atonement would be Christ died for all the sins of some...
universalism would be that Christ's death forgave all the sins of all
and then something else i dont' know what to call...Christ's death made forgiveness available for all the sins of all but not automatic..in that each individual must accept it as a free gift from God...

[Nate]

Look what I started.

Let's keep to the topic... and take this to another thread if you wish to continue discussing it.

In HIs love,
Nate

[joshaber]

Yes, let us please keep on topic.

God predestines that we follow our fallen nature? I suppose there is a distinction, though ever so slight, between predestining our sin and tempting us. Does not God then predestine our falling into temptation?

BTW, I would prefer if Arminianists stayed out of this thread for now, just so that this doesn't turn into a debate.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by joshaber

Does not God then predestine our falling into temptation?

Of course He does, He just doesn't tempt us Himself. Why would Christ pray "Lead us not into temptation" if that was something that God, in fact, would never do anyway?

In His love,
Nate

[joshaber]

Why ask for deliverance from sin when our failure has been predestined?

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by joshaber

Why ask for deliverance from sin when our failure has been predestined?

Because you have been commanded to do so. I mean, I'm non-Calvinist. So I struggle with the same question that you're asking. But the general answer is, "Just because your life has been predestined doesn't mean that you have any excuse to sit around doing nothing or sinning." In other words, act out the part you've been given. Read the script, follow the guidelines, etc.

[mlqurgw]

I think there may be a mixup of two different things here. God predestines people. He foreordains things. He foreordians to allow sin because it serves Hi purpose. Just my 2cents

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by mlqurgw

I think there may be a mixup of two different things here. God predestines people. He foreordains things. He foreordians to allow sin because it serves Hi purpose. Just my 2cents

He foreordains to allow sin? You mean that He foreordains sin period right? Which is still predestinating sin.