[BereanatHeart]

Hey guys, I know there has already been some discussion on this, and I've read through all that I can find. You guys have actually changed my mind on the subject, however, there a a few points, such as making oinos refer to wine and grape juice, and some of the Hebrew arguments that I'm not exactly sure how to answer.

I'd really appreciate it if some of you more "scholarly" people could kind of do a point by point refutation of the following articles, one of which I wrote in the past, another I came across in my studies.

By "drinking" it is assumed liquids containing alcohol are meant, such
as whisky, wine, beer, etc. Of course, different definitions are offered
for "moderate" It is good that we are concerned with what the Bible
teaches. The Bible is God's express will which must be obeyed (Jn. 12: 48, 2 Jn. 9-11).

Some contend the Bible actually endorses moderate drinking. Jesus'
first miracle is often sighted as proof. "Jesus made wine for the people to
drink," we are told, "therefore, drinking wine...is not wrong!" Some
contend that not only did Jesus make intoxicating wine, but he himself was a
winebibber. Beloved, there are basically three Hebrew words and one
Greek word rendered wine in the Bible. The word oinos is found in connection
with Jesus' first miracle (Jn. 2: 1-11). Oinos is found 33 times in the
Greek New Testament. Oinos itself may mean either fermented (containing alcohol) or unfermented drink (grape juice). We know that oinos in John 2 is
unfermented because the guests were "well drunk" before Jesus made additional oinos for them (Jn. 2: 10). The Bible obviously condemns
drunkenness (Eph. 5:18).

The scriptures teach the avoidance of intoxicating drink. The Bible
recognizes the proper controlled, medicinal use of alcohol (I Tim. 5:
23), but drinking intoxicating drinks for the sake of drunkenness or social
conformity, even in moderation, is forbidden. The Christian is to
"abstain from all appearance of evil" (I Thes. 5: 22). Indeed, strong drink is
condemned (Prov. 23: 29-35). Drunkenness is described in the text (vss.
29, 33-35). The consequent admonition is given, "Look not thou upon the
wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth
itself aright" (Prov. 23:31). In other words, stay away from it altogether!
One will never regret the avoidance of strong drink.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proverbs 23: 29-35. The passage reads as follows:

"29: Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath
babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30:
They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31: Look
not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the
cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32: At the last it biteth like a serpent,
and stingeth like an adder. 33: Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and
thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34: Yea, thou shalt be as he
that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of
a mast. 35: They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick;
they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it
yet again."



A number of years ago America ostensibly declared war on drugs. New and
more punitive measures for the violation of these drug laws, as a
consequence,were put in place. Today, a significant percentage of prisoners are incarcerated because of breaking drug laws. However, the most
dangerous, devastating, and ignored drug ever known to man continues to be whitewashed. I am referring to the drug alcohol. Alcohol continues to be the drug of choice of many. We are told that alcohol abuse amounts to more human and property waste than all other drug abuse combined. Many religionists insist that alcohol when not taken to the excess is acceptable (Eph. 5: 18, see addendum for additional information). In this material, we shall study one of the most powerful biblical texts that addresses strong drink, Proverbs 23: 29-35. The passage reads as follows:

"29: Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath
babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30:
They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31: Look
not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the
cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32: At the last it biteth like a serpent,
and stingeth like an adder. 33: Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and
thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34: Yea, thou shalt be as he
that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of
a mast. 35: They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick;
they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it
yet again."

Let us now carefully examine the passage to determine the teaching
and necessary application. However, just a cursory reading should have
informed one of the grief and shame associated with strong drink.

A brief exegesis of verse twenty-nine. The Wise Man asked a series
of probing questions to ascertain the correct position relative to strong
drink. The first inquiry is, "Who hath woe? Who hath sorrow?" The
Hebrew lemi oi and lemi aboi (hath woe and sorrow) involves two interjections of pain and grief. God does not want man to be unhappy. To the converse, God desires that we be fulfilled and happy (Jn. 13: 17, I Pet. 3: 10, 11, Prov. 23: 21-23). The way of transgressors is hard, wrote the Wise Man (Prov. 13: 15). Man's happiness, however, is conditional (I Pet. 3: 10, 11).

The writer then asks, "Who hath contentions?" Beloved, it is an
indisputable fact that "wine" (see addendum) often leads to contentions
and strife (see Prov. 20: 1). Many murders and assaults have been
precipitated by alcohol. Keep in mind that our beer is about the equivalent of the strong drink of the Bible. He continues by asking, "Who hath babbling?" The idea of the Hebrew "siach" seems to be "thoughts of regret." The drinker often complains about his lot in life. Often, the whining of the drunk is
repulsive. "Who hath wounds without cause?," he then probes. These
wounds are not necessary and, doubtless, would have not been experienced, had it not been for the influence of alcohol. Perhaps these wounds are the result and product of the referenced "contentions." Last of all, he asks, "Who hath redness of eyes?" The King James Version understands the Hebrew (chakliluth) to refer to bloodshot eyes. The Hebrew is also capable of meaning "darkness or dimness of sight." Regardless of the understanding of chakliluth, the reference is to visual physical results when the stimulant reaches and influences the brain.

An examination of verse thirty. Verse thirty contains the answer
to the question raised in verse twenty-nine. "They that tarry long at the
wine, they that seek mixed wine," is the answer to those experiencing sorrow, contentions, babbling, wounds, and redness of the eyes. The Septuagint Version has, "Those who hunt out where carousals are taking place" (cp. I Pet. 4: 3). Some use this verse in an effort to prove that the Bible does not condemn a controlled social use, but that it only prohibits the
abuse or drunkenness (see next verse).

A closer look at verse thirty-one. The Pulpit Commentary observes:
"The wine of Palestine was chiefly 'red,' though what we call white wine was
not unknown" (Vol. 9, pg. 445). Verse thirty-one contains the remedy for
all the ills of alcohol. It is a practical and feasible solution, one that
anyone can practice. When I was a small boy my mother took me to the local jail. I visited a prisoner who was being held for attempted murder. He was a nice young man who did not seem to possess any tendency at all toward violence. He told me, "Don, stay away from alcohol, I did not and it has ruined my life!" Here is the solution offered by inspiration: "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it
moveth itself aright." Liquor often involves a culture or atmosphere that
appeals to our senses. There is the general atmosphere, the appearance of the substance, and the taste, all of these sensations are alluring and
enticing to those who will be mislead by strong drink.

The teaching and remedy is do not even place yourself in the
position of coming in visual contact with strong drink (total abstinence, as far as the matter being discussed).

An examination of verse Thirty-two. Wine helps the consumer
"forget his problems" and experience an euphoric state of mind. Strong drink often temporarily replaces sadness with "gladness" However, wine is a
deceiver: "At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stringeth like an adder."
Wine, in other words, is deceitful (cp. Heb. 3: 12-14, 11: 25). The idea of
"stringeth like an adder" seems to suggest puncturing or making a wound
(cp. Ps. 140: 3). In stead of being visually moved by the appearance of
liquor, one should see liquor as the deadly venom of the adder or poisonous
snake.

An exposition of verse thirty-three. Another product of strong
drink is, "Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter
perverse things." Man's judgement and sense of right and wrong are
blurred when under the influence. As a result of strong drink, adultery and a
corrupt heart often are experienced (I Cor. 6: 9, 10, Prov. 4: 23).
Some translate the Hebrew with the neuter; hence, the rendering "Thine eyes shall behold strange things…." However, many scholars prefer, in view of the general tenor of the teachings and phraseology of Proverbs, "strange or unlawful women." The Septuagint reads: "When thou eyes shall see a
strange woman, then thy mouth shall speak perverse things."

Alcohol has probably been the cause of more marital infidelity
than all other influences combined. Many children have ended up facing a broken home or subjected to violence and terrible insecurity because of wine.

The teaching of verse thirty-four. The language, "Yea, thou shalt
be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon
the top of a mast" is describing the real dangers that surround the person
under the influence. Strong drink offers a false state of security and safety,
even in the presence of actual life-threatening dangers (cp. I Cor. 10: 12).
Hence, the drinker does not think he has a problem and needs to make changes.

The final verse, verse thirty-five. A better rendering of the
original is, "They have strickened…and I was not hurt" (ASV). The warnings of pain are silenced due to the dulling affects of alcohol. The expression, "I
will seek it again" is indicative of the determination of the drinker to
return to the bottle, even though he knows the bottle will only bring
complication, shame, and misery.

Beloved, other than the careful medicinal use of alcohol, there is
no good associated with strong drink (see I Tim. 5: 23). The warning of
the text is: Do not even come in visual contact with the substance! (vs.
31). Countless lives are ruined everyday because of alcohol and children
needlessly suffer the consequences of strong drink, often before they
are even born. It is the height of hypocrisy that we condemn other drugs
and the worse drug of all is ignored. Also, in view of the plain teaching of
Proverbs 23: 29-35, it is unbelievable how some insist that Jesus
turned water into strong drink (instead of juice from the grape) and thus
provided a drunken orgy (Jn. 2: 1-11, 10, click on, "Jesus' First Miracle" to
read more).

Addendum: There is no little amount of confusion about Bible
wines because there is often too little study of the subject. There are
basically three Hebrew words of interest that are translated wine. Tirosh is
found 38 times in the Hebrew scriptures. Tirosh is translated "wine" 26 times,
"new wine" 11 times and "sweet wine" once. Tirosh is used of grapes (natural state, cluster, Judges 9: 13, Isa. 65: 8) and apparently of fermented drink (Hosea 4: 11, Zech. 9: 17). Yayin is found about 135 times in the Hebrew text. It is defined as, "Yayin stands for the expressed juice of the grape, the context sometimes indicating whether the juice had undergone or not the process of fermentation" (Bible Commentary, Appendix B, pg. 412). Yayin is used of fermented drink or state (Gen. 9: 21-24) and the unfermented state (Ps. 104: 15). Shakar is found about 21 times. Shakar is translated "strong drink" in the King James. Shakar is used of the fermented state (Isa. 29: 9) and the natural or unfermented condition (Deut. 14: 26). Oinos is the Greek word that is used for wine in the New Testament. Oinos is found 33 times in the Greek New Testament. Oinos is used of intoxicating drink (Eph. 5: 18) and of unfermented juice (Jn. 2: 3).

Regarding shakar in Deuteronomy 14: 26, many translations do
translate shakar "strong drink." However, some have "similar drink" (see the New King James). There is obviously an intended distinction being made between the "wine" and "shakar." The question is, what is the distinction. Is God not only allowing intoxicating drink but actually telling them to go buy it
when God considers strong drink something concerning which man is to totally avoid (Prov. 23: 31)?

I believe the harmonious answer to the distinction between "wine" and
"shakar" in Deuteronomy 14: 26 is seen in the celebrated scholar Patton's
work, Bible Wines, pg.. 62: "Shakar (sometimes written shechar, shekar)
signifies sweet drink expressed from fruits other than the grape and
drunk in an unfermented or fermented state. It occurs in the Old Testament
twenty-three times...." Since God prohibited the unnatural
fermentation of juices for simple human intoxication, I must understand shakar in Deuteronomy 14: 26 to simply mean unfermented or sweet juices other than juice from the grape. Deuteronomy 14 26, then, would be a case of shakar being used for sweet juice other than juice from the grape ("similar drink,"
NKJV).

As you can see, these four words translated wine in the Bible have both
a generic and specific meaning capability, unlike our word wine.

As to the preservation of grape juice, some have erroneously
thought that since they did not have refrigeration, they could not preserve the juice in its natural state. For this reason, some have exaggerated the
use of fermented drink. They make drinking fermented juice seem common in
Bible days, even though there was (is) an express prohibition against the use of "strong drink" (Prov. 23: 29-35). The truth of the matter is, the Orientals had a number of ways of preserving grape juice. One book that I have found to be very accurate is, "Bible Wines," by William Patton. Patton lists and documents four methods of preservation used by people in Bible days. There was boiling (pg. 26-29), filtration (pg. 34), subsidence (pg. 36) and fumigation (pg. 41 ff).

[+Donny]

You may want to read God Gave Wine by Kenneth Gentry. If I end up posting here at your request, all I'll do is spit out what he says in his book, so you might as well get it from him.

[Ridley's Own]

Short answer to a long question: If you have to do that much exegetical dancing to support your assertion, you're more than likely wrong.

Originally Posted by Berean

The scriptures teach the avoidance of intoxicating drink. The Bible recognizes the proper controlled, medicinal use of alcohol (I Tim. 5:
23), but drinking intoxicating drinks for the sake of drunkenness or social
conformity, even in moderation, is forbidden.

No one would argue that drinking for the sake of drunkeness or conformity is good. In fact, most of us drinkers on this board (myself included) began consuming alcohol contrarily to the over-riding attitude of our various circles of friends. My attitude is that if you are not mature enough to know when you are drinking to fit in and when you're drinking because you like alcohol, then you're probably not of drinking age, anyway.

However, the most dangerous, devastating, and ignored drug ever known to man continues to be whitewashed. I am referring to the drug alcohol.

Verse 30 in the psalms quoted is correct. We shouldn't 'tarry long,' and no one is arguing otherwise. We're advocating 'tarrying,' but not tarrying on into the night and into the next morning. People who abuse alcohol are abusing one of God's gifts. Secondly, while alcohol abuse is devastating, I have never heard of anyone dying or being addicted to alcohol after a single shot. I have, however, heard of people dying on their first round of heroin and being addicted after their first puff of the crack pipe. To say that alcohol is more dangerous that heroin or crack is hyperbole beyond measure.

The whole of the article is built around the assumption that the moderate use of alcohol is 'tarrying long.' I don't think anyone would argue that 'tarrying long' is a good thing. But what your article doesn't define is what 'tarrying long' actually means.

[Lightknight]

For one, why did they skip the ninth chapter in proverbs?

Pro 9:5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine [which] I have mingled.

The Hebrew word there is yayin. Which comes from a root meaning to effervesce (form bubbles). Lol, it is obviously fermented wine. I find it funny how this article simply avoids the verses that it cannot explain and that the verses which it can explain they are simply stretching so that they can have their own beliefs.

Pro 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

Yayin is used here as well. The article accepts yayin as a fermented wine in proverbs!!! But they avoid its usage in 9 where it is encouraged. lol, here's another location of it. (Just in case there was any doubt that Yayin means fermented wine)

Pro 20:1 Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Here is a command to give wine (yayin) to certain people at least.

Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

So again, this article is left without a leg to stand on. It condemns itself.

Yayin again appears here. And it isn't a bad thing here. It is something that the righteous are told to do. I'd like to see someone explain that away.

Ecc 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

and again,

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.


Now, for my grand finale. The word OINOS in Greek. Comes from the Hebrew word (that's right, it's a greek word that is Hebrew in origin) YAYIN. So Oinos is refering to fermented wine.

ooooooh... this article got shamed!

Also, they are incorrect in saying that there is only one word in the NT for wine.

gleukos is used on the day of Pentecost. When people are speaking in tongues and the crowd thinks that they're drunk. Glucose (sugar molecules) is derived from this greek word so we know that it is sweet wine.

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Just so that you know that Glucose is also fermented wine, the reply to the crowd is this,

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.

So even though they say "new wine", it is still fermented.

I do not and will not ever drink wine. But that is a personal conviction of my own. Not something that is biblically based. So it angers me when such people lie about the Bible. They should know that it is their own conviction and not one of the Bible. It is wrong to become drunk. Moderation is required. But moderation doesn't mean "none".

[Lightknight]

Any replies? Thoughts?

[Insane Drummer]

Luke 7:33-34 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'"


If John came NOT drinking wine, then Jesus says the Son of Man HAS come drinking, its pretty obvious He is refering to wine.

"Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day."

This isn't a serious arguement, but it seems funny to me that they give evidence that they are not drunk is the time of day, not the fact their religion is anti-drinking, or they don't drink.

[BereanatHeart]

Those are all good poinsts.

I like how you can point out the only reason that he had to come up with the idea of two different "wines" is because he was tryin to harmonize his misunderstanding of Prov. 23 with Duet. 14, and rather than doing so by changing his views on Prov. 23, he attempts to harmonize by using exegitical fallacy.

Okay, here's another questions I've been wondering about:

"When one drinks even the first drink effects him.
Slowed thought, a "relaxed feeling", impaired judgement. So if our body is
not ours but Gods why would we partake of ANY substance that even begins to
impair our Judgement and Higher Brain functions."

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by BereanatHeart

Those are all good poinsts.

I like how you can point out the only reason that he had to come up with the idea of two different "wines" is because he was tryin to harmonize his misunderstanding of Prov. 23 with Duet. 14, and rather than doing so by changing his views on Prov. 23, he attempts to harmonize by using exegitical fallacy.

Okay, here's another questions I've been wondering about:

"When one drinks even the first drink effects him.
Slowed thought, a "relaxed feeling", impaired judgement. So if our body is
not ours but Gods why would we partake of ANY substance that even begins to
impair our Judgement and Higher Brain functions."

There is an obvious difference between one who is actually drunk and one who has had a drink. Moderation is ok because it does not really impair judgement. Remember, wine was what they had to drink at the time. Also, it was a form of medicine too. Whatever reason, we are allowed to do it in moderation. We are even encouraged to do so. It is not the small amount of impairment that is bad. It is when you cross the threshold into being actually drunk that is bad.

[BereanatHeart]

Interesting point. Biblically it is still accepted, guess I didn't think of that. Thanks

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by BereanatHeart

Those are all good poinsts.

I like how you can point out the only reason that he had to come up with the idea of two different "wines" is because he was tryin to harmonize his misunderstanding of Prov. 23 with Duet. 14, and rather than doing so by changing his views on Prov. 23, he attempts to harmonize by using exegitical fallacy.

Okay, here's another questions I've been wondering about:

"When one drinks even the first drink effects him.
Slowed thought, a "relaxed feeling", impaired judgement. So if our body is
not ours but Gods why would we partake of ANY substance that even begins to
impair our Judgement and Higher Brain functions."

That would also rule out staying up late for finishing college assignments...

[Lightknight]

I was wondering if someone more adept in greek could verify that the greek word used for wine is indeed descended from Yayin in Hebrew. I got that from a few lexicons, but I'd like another's comments on it. If it is descended from Yayin, then there is no way it could be refering to unfermented wine. And thusly, this whole thing is already a laugh.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

oivon is actually occasionally used for unfermented wine.

"new wine in old wineskins" makes no sense if it refers to previously fermented wine.

Ridleysown makes some good points on this subject.

[ChrisHarbison]

I found this statement quite amusing.

"Oinos itself may mean either fermented (containing alcohol) or unfermented drink (grape juice). We know that oinos in John 2 is
unfermented because the guests were "well drunk" before Jesus made additional oinos for them (Jn. 2: 10). The Bible obviously condemns
drunkenness (Eph. 5:18)."

So in John 2, when it says the guests were "well drunK" that means that they'd just had a lot of grape juice and time for more. Hahaha. Let's look at the entire passage. First of all, the English translation of the Bible is a pretty good translation. If it says wine, then it's likely that it means wine and not grape juice. Secondly, here's verse 10 after the host pulls the groom aside, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best until now." This is obviously talking about fermented "oinos".

[ChrisHarbison]

"When one drinks even the first drink effects him.
Slowed thought, a "relaxed feeling", impaired judgement. So if our body is
not ours but Gods why would we partake of ANY substance that even begins to
impair our Judgement and Higher Brain functions."

Bill made a good point here. Staying up late to study causes the same effect. The chemical reaction that goes on in the human brain after orgasm is very similar to that of a small amount of alcohol, so is sex with your spouse wrong too? Furthermore, why stop at depressants, what about stimulants. Caffiene affect our higher brain functions. I wonder if the writer of that statment had a morning cup of coffee?

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

I found this statement quite amusing.

"Oinos itself may mean either fermented (containing alcohol) or unfermented drink (grape juice). We know that oinos in John 2 is
unfermented because the guests were "well drunk" before Jesus made additional oinos for them (Jn. 2: 10). The Bible obviously condemns
drunkenness (Eph. 5:18)."

So in John 2, when it says the guests were "well drunK" that means that they'd just had a lot of grape juice and time for more. Hahaha. Let's look at the entire passage. First of all, the English translation of the Bible is a pretty good translation. If it says wine, then it's likely that it means wine and not grape juice. Secondly, here's verse 10 after the host pulls the groom aside, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best until now." This is obviously talking about fermented "oinos".

Good point.

Question, is a new wine always unfermented? I mean, what exactly qualifies as a new/old wine? You can buy wine from last year as far as I know. Maybe even this year. It is just as alcoholic.