[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

I thought that our "witness" (a term which is a little confusing in itself) was a witness unto Christ. We are witnesses to the Majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by LightKnight

Jesus was witnessing to people about his Father as well. "We" witness about Christ and the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

Ah, I must have been misunderstanding that the term stemmed specifically from when the Bible talks about us being witnesses to the majesty of Christ.

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Oh, I wasn't refering to that verse at all. I was just saying that he wouldn't have done so.

I really don't understand how "I was just saying that he wouldn't have done so" fits into this discourse. He wouldn't have done what? Drink in front of the people talked about in other parts of this?

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

The ones who have a problem tend to be in Christian circles, the world doesn't share this. Does a Mormon drinking a coke lose all credibility (I think that's what you mean by witness, correct me if I am wrong)? You are not the one with a problem with caffine.

Originally Posted by Lightknight

But see, according to that verse, it specifically talks about other Christians having problems with it. You're right, it is mainly misinformed Christians who have issues with it. But that verse isn't refering to unbelievers. So even though they are misinformed, we are commanded SPECIFICALLY regarding strong drink, not to do it if they are offended by it.

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

That verse? I was not aware there was a verse referenced.

I was replying to concerns about one's "witness," which I would think is to non-Christians.

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Oh, well I wasn't basing it on that verse. I was using this one, (which I had already quoted twice, once in big type)

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

I do not see what that has to do with this part of the discussion.

Further, I say again, I do not see how you can draw your drinking-in private solution from this text.

Originally Posted by Lightknight

You mean Christians who believe drinking alcohol is wrong. (some agree that it isn't sinful, but shouldn't be done). Any who would be offended or caused to fall by your actions.

One who think that it is morally wrong (sinful, even though some might not be willing to use the term). Those who believe it is simply inadvisable could not stumble because of it, I would think.

Originally Posted by Lightknight

I mean, they might not be found in a bar. You're right. But I've gone to several bars to play pool and drink soda. I don't know about you.

In somewhere like a bar, the person put himself in the environment with no pretense of avoiding the issue, so if they are offended or something, that is because they have proceeded very poorly. Genreally someone who has a problem with alcohol isn't going to be in a bar.

[bryanfal]

Originally Posted by slap_j

I think maybe feeling a bit buzzed or at ease is what this verse is talking about...

And wine which makes man's heart glad,
So that he may make his face glisten with oil,
And food which sustains man's heart. - Psalm 104:15

I would be curious to see what the greek has to say about this phrase makes, "man's heart glad". In the context of the vers it seemst o be talking about the physical as opposed to the emotional which would be the buzzed feeling.

Help anyone?

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV describes alcohol abusers as those who drink despite recurrent social, interpersonal, and legal problems as a result of alcohol use. Harmful use implies alcohol use that causes either physical or mental damage.

I guess here is where I would need to include the attitude of the believer as well as the non believer. If a Christian thinks it wrong to drink, (wether they are biblicaly based or not, legalistic or not) you are still drinking in spite of interpersonal problems. Or abusing alcohol.

Those who are alcohol dependent meet all of the criteria of alcohol abuse, but the will also exhibit some or all of the following:

* Narrowing of the drinking repertoire (drinking only one brand or type of alcoholic beverage).

* Drink-seeking behavior (only going to social events that will include drinking, or only hanging out with others who drink).

* Alcohol tolerance (having to drink increasing amounts to achieve previous effects).

* Withdrawal symptoms (getting physical symptoms after going a short period without drinking).

* Drinking to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms (such as drinking to stop the shakes or to "cure" a hangover).

* Subjective awareness of the compulsion to drink or craving for alcohol (whether they admit it to others or not).

* A return to drinking after a period of abstinence (deciding to quit drinking and not being able to follow through).

Thank you, this was very helpful.
You rock!!

[Skeeter]

Originally Posted by bryanfal

I would be curious to see what the greek has to say about this phrase makes, "man's heart glad". In the context of the vers it seemst o be talking about the physical as opposed to the emotional which would be the buzzed feeling.

Help anyone?

Um, the buzzed feeling is physical...

[mlqurgw]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Using that verse would be ridiculous. Why don't you prohibit meat as well? As it is mentioned with the same intention as alcohol.

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't using it to back up the prohibition. I intended it for the opposite. The verse is against others imposing their rules on you.

[bryanfal]

Originally Posted by Skeeter

Um, the buzzed feeling is physical...

youre right, the buzzed feeling is a physical feeling, but it results in a very strong emotional response of happiness.

What I mean is the verse says that food provides the heart sustenance, which is physical, then says that wine makes the heart glad which was and is defended by some as "well drinking makes me happy, it makes my heart glad" which would be an emotional response to a physical reaction. But we know that a glass of wine here and there thins the blood and helps to keep your heart healty, or happy. So in this context the scripture would not be encouraging drinking to make yourself happy.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by bryanfal

But we know that a glass of wine here and there thins the blood and helps to keep your heart healty, or happy. So in this context the scripture would not be encouraging drinking to make yourself happy.

An organ cannot be happy...

I don't think this verse is talking about the physical organ. I think it is more referring to the seat of emotions in a man.

[Skeeter]

What? This is ridiculous. Alcohol invokes a physical response which leads to an emotional one. There's no seperation involved...

[maadio]

Are you guys going to debate caffiene after you debate alcohol? It seems to me that you have to, since one is a drug and so is the other.

[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by plaid_child

Are you guys going to debate caffiene after you debate alcohol? It seems to me that you have to, since one is a drug and so is the other.

For whatever reason, caffeine never seems to count like alcohol and nicotine. The the former two are bad, but for whatever reason, other drugs are somehow different. So your guess is as good as mine.

[maadio]

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

For whatever reason, caffeine never seems to count like alcohol and nicotine. The the former two are bad, but for whatever reason, other drugs are somehow different. So your guess is as good as mine.

oookay...

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by mlqurgw

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't using it to back up the prohibition. I intended it for the opposite. The verse is against others imposing their rules on you.

yeah, it was a misunderstanding.