[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

What I'm saying is perception is reality to the person observing your behavior.
You're non-christian friends surely don't care if you drink because they probably know you well enough to know your convictions and beliefs.
What about the person who is seeing you from a distance and thinks you're just like everybody else? They see you drinking with your friends, probably laughing, if your with non-christian friends could be laughing at inapropriate jokes and language. You may never get a chance to talk with them, but could leave a false perception in their mind. To them it is reality. Now before you think this is a personal attack or anything, I don't know you or your behavior. I'm just laying out a scenario.

I didn't take that as a personal attack at all, I agree with you completely. However, I'm responsible for myself. I do what I can to show Christ to those I know. I'm one man and I can't worry about everyone else. If someone who doesn't know me sees me from afar and assumes I'm not a Christian, that's an assumption they make. Basically I'm not concerned about what they think. I'm concerned only with those that have been placed in my life.

Originally Posted by Gavin

So you're still not helping yourself there. And no, you are wrong. It isn't a fact, it's an opinion. Your opinion. Which I don't hold. As I've said before, I have lead some unbelievers to Christ through acting like what they thought a Christian should be (i.e. not cussing especially.). Also, stereotypical Christians aren't the only ones who think drinking is wrong. Alcoholism affects everyone. Drinking alcohol doesn't naturally lead to alcoholism if done in moderation, but alcoholism can't be done without drinking alcohol. So nonbelievers also believe that a person of morals shouldn't drink.

Fair enough, but the verse you posted says it all. If you're with people that are opposed to drinking, then don't drink; and I already stated that that's precisely what I do. I have Christian friends that don't approve of drinking and I gladly abstain when they're around. I have other Christian friends that have no problem with drinking and I gladly drink around them.

[+Donny]

That's funny because I don't know how many times I have heard from non-christians that the reason they don't go to church is that the church is full of hypocrites, who go to church on Sunday after being out at the clubs on Saturday night and act just like everyone else throughout the week.

..

Originally Posted by RidleysOwn

Indeed, a false perception is bad. Perhaps it would be our Christian duty to not play this charade that drinking and joviality is morally abhorrent.

This is an interesting point. The Chuch needs to stop feeding nonchristians lies about the law of God.

[exo]

Originally Posted by +Donny

..



This is an interesting point. The Chuch needs to stop feeding nonchristians lies about the law of God.

Precisely. That's the most ironic thing about this whole situation.

[mlqurgw]

IMHO The prohibition against drinking is just others imposing their rules on others. I would use this Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.
Col 2:18 Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he hath seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increasing with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances,
Col 2:21 Handle not, nor taste, nor touch
Col 2:22 (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

[bryanfal]

Gotta throw up two cents here.

First things first, I do not believe that drinking is a sin, drunkeness however is. WHere is the line?

Physiologically speaking, your body becomes immediately dependent upon the drink. It gets used to the thinner blood, the change in pulse rate, and the relaxation of chemicals in the brain. Almost immediately, your body begins to desire the physiological results of one drink. This change in pulse, thinning of blood, and relaxed chemicals at first would have no noticeable effect. However, when the chemicals in your brain would relax too much, and your blood become too thin, your brain would register this fact to you. This would result in this "a little buzzed" feeling. So, physically, and physiologically speaking, the feeling of being "a little buzzed" is definately the definition of being drunk, or having too much drink.

Morally speaking, I do not drink because I cannot control myself. I am a recovering alcoholic and have just reached the point at which I can actually go into a bar without having to wipe the drool from my chin.
With that aside, we need to look at the reason why you drink. Is it truly because you want to get on that persons (christian or non) side so that you can witness to them? Or is it because YOU want a drink, and if the conversations happen that revolve around Christ then great?

We are called to "be all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some" (1 Chorintians 9:22).

I guess, what is the purpose, are you there to give yourself some glory by enjoying yourself with a drink, or are you there to give glory to God by becoming all things to all men so that you can talk to them about Christ. And be honest with yourself.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by bryanfal

Gotta throw up two cents here.

Gross. You should know better than to swallow pennies.

First things first, I do not believe that drinking is a sin, drunkeness however is. WHere is the line?

.08 BAL. That's the legal definition, and that's what I would hold to. Of course, the amount of alcohol that it takes to get you to that level varies from person to person.

This would result in this "a little buzzed" feeling. So, physically, and physiologically speaking, the feeling of being "a little buzzed" is definately the definition of being drunk, or having too much drink.

I would argue that getting buzzed isn't the same as getting drunk; wine is supposed to 'gladden the heart,' and I think that's the scriptural term for 'buzzed.' I would still hold to the .08 BAL as the 'drunk or not drunk.'

Is it truly because you want to get on that persons (christian or non) side so that you can witness to them? Or is it because YOU want a drink, and if the conversations happen that revolve around Christ then great?

It's because I like beer, wine and mixed drinks. Do I need a better reason?

I guess, what is the purpose, are you there to give yourself some glory by enjoying yourself with a drink, or are you there to give glory to God by becoming all things to all men so that you can talk to them about Christ. And be honest with yourself.

My blog has Beer Blessing that I use whenever I drink. I think that's as honest as you can get.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by bryanfal

I guess, what is the purpose, are you there to give yourself some glory by enjoying yourself with a drink,

I do not drink, personal issues with alchoholism.

However, one could say the same here of having sex with one's wife, eating pizza or drinling cold water on a hot day. You are drawing a false parrelel between exalting ones own self, and enjoying creation.

I enjoyed a good cup of fine tea last night for its own sake. Was that sin?

Is it sin then to enjoy the sights of beauty in creation, from mountain tops to oceans, to anything. you have equated enjoyment with sin. A pitiable state one would be in if he lived consistently according to this.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

A pitiable state one would be in if he lived consistently according to this.

A little off-topic, but I think a lot of evangelicals work themselves into a frenzy wherein they can't enjoy anything without it somehow being worked into a presentation of the Gospel. Instead of making an excuse for enjoying something (like, 'we're sharing Jesus in the bar and that's why I drink'), why not just be honest about it and say, "I like beer." Or "Disney World" or "tea" or "baseball" or "AC/DC concerts" or whatever you like.

I think that's why so many evangelicals wind up with their cheese slipping off their crackers.

[Yojimbo]

I like to drink because it tastes good and it can be relaxing and fun...no other reason needed.

[+Donny]

Alcohol still tastes disgusting to me. I drink like a baptist.

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

That statement was not a personal attack. I apologize if it came across like that. I don't even know the guy. He said he got a little buzzed. If a person is getting buzzed then the alcohol is having an effect on them. Alchohol can have more of an effect on someone then they realize.

I'm afraid it was more certainly was a personal attack. You told him that you bet he was more buzzed than he thinks, acted as though he was redefining drunkenness so that he could jsutify getting drunk, and told him he probably got drunk. You had no reason to believe that he drinks that way, as far as I can tell, and told him he was participating in drunkenness (accusing him of sin.) You accused your brother of sin without any evidense.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

To the person that said they are having a glass of wine at dinner. That's fine. I don't see how that could hurt anything. I was talking about the type of drinking that when your out with your friends having a few beers.

I don't see the inherent problem with either. Jesus participated in social drinking (think of the Wedding at Cana.)

Originally Posted by BobbyB

As far as women go, after you have had a few beers and a "glad heart", your eyes will drift a little more than they might normally.

If you lost control, you have obviously had too much. A few beers over a long period of time will not lead to this kind of loss of control.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

I don't know where cars come in, but hey good luck with that.

Someone of my weight could probably have like 8 beers over the period of a few hours and legally drive. I couldn't imagine doing that (and FYI, I'm 18, I do not drink.)

Originally Posted by BobbyB

Anyway, I don't have anymore to add to this conversation. As far as pride goes, I don't have any when it comes to this subject. I am glad that Jesus delivered me from the desire to drink. It is not the example I wish to set for my kids. If you want to drink and can justify it, be my guest.

I'm sorry you are nto staying around to discuss this further.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

Someone of my weight could probably have like 8 beers over the period of a few hours and legally drive. I couldn't imagine doing that (and FYI, I'm 18, I do not drink.)

Yes, it's all very scientific. You can find a BAL calculator online.

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

The reason I have not used one scripture source to show that drinking is prohibited, is because I don't believe drinking is a sin. I do believe it can have an effect on your witness, for reasons I have stated earlier. Therfore I think it is something we should abstain from.

I found your reasons wanting. It is the Christians for the most part, not the non-Christians, who have a problem with drinking.

Shall we cease from things like protesting abortion clinics because that is something the world things is not good, and could make them think we are messed up?

No, a good witness is to live biblcally, not avoid doing all the things that the world does. The world if full of heroism we ought not avoid, but quite the opposite.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

Just curious, I don't recall Jesus as participating when He turned the water into wine.

We are told that the guests had drunk freely before the miracle. Jesus was a guest, and there is no reason to believe he did not freely drink of the wedding drinking.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

Can you show me where Jesus participated in drinking other than during the last supper or at meals?

He drank in such a way the pharisees accused him of being a drunkard.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

He drank in such a way the pharisees accused him of being a drunkard.

"The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' - Luke 7:34

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Yes, but remember, in his time it wasn't taboo for a "good" Christian to drink. Now it is taboo. So of course it wouldn't have hindered his witness. But it might hinder ours if we did it today in the US.

1) Jesus had a witness? I thought that our "witness" (a term which is a little confusing in itself) was a witness unto Christ. We are witnesses to the Majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ.

2) The ones who have a problem tend to be in Christian circles, the world doesn't share this. Does a Mormon drinking a coke lose all credibility (I think that's what you mean by witness, correct me if I am wrong)? You are not the one with a problem with caffine.

It seems just as likely that drinking non-Christians are apt to perceive Christianity as legalism when they realize that the Christians they know don't do things like drink.