[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

But drinking is something we can choose not to participate in.

So are charitable works and conversation.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

You can use the other examples like conversation and eating if you like. But these are just diversions.

What about drinking (let's take the specific example of Jesus's drinking) is different than this in a way that indicates it should not occur.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

I bet you get a little more buzzed then you think. Where do you draw the line on drunkeness? I bet you have probably crossed that line and not known it.

Your personal attacks were totally unwarrented and innappropriate. If you have reason to think he is a drunkard, a private confrontation would be in order.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

Like Lightnight said earlier, if you drink you should do so in private lest you cause your brother to stumble.

I don't see how 1 Cor 8 could possibly suggest to just do these things privately.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

I have known several alcoholics in my day that you would never know were drinking, but they were destroying there body the whole time. These friends of mine would use your same argument saying they are just drinking in moderation and not getting drunk.

So that means that everyone who claims that is wrong and justifying their alcoholism or something?

Originally Posted by BobbyB

Please define drunkeness.

Being delirious from drinking alcohol, especially habitually.

[BobbyB]

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

Your personal attacks were totally unwarrented and innappropriate. If you have reason to think he is a drunkard, a private confrontation would be in order.

That statement was not a personal attack. I apologize if it came across like that. I don't even know the guy. He said he got a little buzzed. If a person is getting buzzed then the alcohol is having an effect on them. Alchohol can have more of an effect on someone then they realize.

To the person that said they are having a glass of wine at dinner. That's fine. I don't see how that could hurt anything. I was talking about the type of drinking that when your out with your friends having a few beers. As far as women go, after you have had a few beers and a "glad heart", your eyes will drift a little more than they might normally. I don't know where cars come in, but hey good luck with that. Anyway, I don't have anymore to add to this conversation. As far as pride goes, I don't have any when it comes to this subject. I am glad that Jesus delivered me from the desire to drink. It is not the example I wish to set for my kids. If you want to drink and can justify it, be my guest.

[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

I am glad that Jesus delivered me from the desire to drink.

This I find hard to swallow. You're suggesting that the desire to drink (something that Christ Himself did) is something that Christians need deliverance from yet you haven't shown a single verse of Scripture that suggests that Christians are prohibited from drinking.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

It is not the example I wish to set for my kids. If you want to drink and can justify it, be my guest.

This I completely respect. If drinking is something you wish to abstain from then that's perfectly fine. If you wish to raise your children that abstinence from alcohol is best, then go for it. I commend you for sticking to your guns and being consistent with what you teach your children. I just hope that you teach your children to make wise decisions about alcohol and don't teach them that's it's a sin.

[BereanatHeart]

What do you guys say to this statement?:

We also make the statement that if drinking is ok till one becomes drunk, then drinking it ok. What you have to ask is what the definition of drunkenness is? Since every drink causes effects to the drinkers brain and body that increases with every drink. The “heart-gladdening effect” that might come from drinking, is the effects of the alcohol. If you are drinking alcohol in moderation then you would not feel any effects. Now a day, with our high level of alcohol in each beverage that first drink has enough alcohol to have an effect. That effect no matter how small is the beginning of drunkenness. Every beverage in this present day is stronger and has more potent effects, through better ingredients and distillation.

I suppose it would be along the same lines as the one before, that it is still not drunkeness. I guess, for whatever reason, I have a problem with this.

[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by BereanatHeart

What do you guys say to this statement?:

We also make the statement that if drinking is ok till one becomes drunk, then drinking it ok. What you have to ask is what the definition of drunkenness is? Since every drink causes effects to the drinkers brain and body that increases with every drink. The “heart-gladdening effect” that might come from drinking, is the effects of the alcohol. If you are drinking alcohol in moderation then you would not feel any effects. Now a day, with our high level of alcohol in each beverage that first drink has enough alcohol to have an effect. That effect no matter how small is the beginning of drunkenness. Every beverage in this present day is stronger and has more potent effects, through better ingredients and distillation.

I suppose it would be along the same lines as the one before, that it is still not drunkeness. I guess, for whatever reason, I have a problem with this.

Excellent point! I'm surprised this didn't come to mind sooner, especially since my father and I were discussing this very thing just 2 days ago. Note that when Christ turned the water into wine at the wedding, the people had already had too much to drink. At His mother's request, He, despite the obvious drunkeness of the guests, gave them even more to drink. So, the real question is, when the Bible talks about drunkeness, is it talking about alcoholism, or a one-time event? I'm not going to argue either way at the moment (frankly because I don't know where I stand on the topic), but it's worth thinking about.

[BobbyB]

[QUOTE=ChrisHarbison]This I find hard to swallow. You're suggesting that the desire to drink (something that Christ Himself did) is something that Christians need deliverance from yet you haven't shown a single verse of Scripture that suggests that Christians are prohibited from drinking.

Originally Posted by BobbyB[It is not the example I wish to set for my kids. If you want to drink and can justify it, be my guest.[/QUOTE

This I completely respect. If drinking is something you wish to abstain from then that's perfectly fine. If you wish to raise your children that abstinence from alcohol is best, then go for it. I commend you for sticking to your guns and being consistent with what you teach your children. I just hope that you teach your children to make wise decisions about alcohol and don't teach them that's it's a sin.

And I thought I could just make my last statement and walk away. Maybe that is like drinking, just when you think you have had your last drink someone brings you another one.

The reason I have not used one scripture source to show that drinking is prohibited, is because I don't believe drinking is a sin. I do believe it can have an effect on your witness, for reasons I have stated earlier. Therfore I think it is something we should abstain from.

Just curious, I don't recall Jesus as participating when He turned the water into wine. Can you show me where Jesus participated in drinking other than during the last supper or at meals?

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

And I thought I could just make my last statement and walk away. Maybe that is like drinking, just when you think you have had your last drink someone brings you another one.

No, that's addiction. Addiction comes from doing something in excess and allowing your body to become dependant on it. Some people just need to know when to say, "no".

The reason I have not used one scripture source to show that drinking is prohibited, is because I don't believe drinking is a sin. I do believe it can have an effect on your witness, for reasons I have stated earlier. Therfore I think it is something we should abstain from.

Yes, you mean because there are no verses to prohibit drinking in the Bible as it was perfectly normal back then just as it is in almost every (or just every) other country except the US today. You must understand that Alcohol being bad even in moderation is a belief that only the U.S. holds. So the notions that you have against alcohol are only socially based and not biblically. However, you are correct in saying that we should not drink alcohol if that would harm our witness in any way. But that doesn't exclude drinking at home or drinking with friends who are already Christian and know it isn't sinful. It's just stereotypically protestant Christianity not to drink. So don't drink around people you know would be offended. And never be drunk. Not even in private.

Just curious, I don't recall Jesus as participating when He turned the water into wine. Can you show me where Jesus participated in drinking other than during the last supper or at meals?

First of all, he encouraged the drinking of others. Even if there was no verse to include himself drinking, do you really think that he would have facilitated the sin of others? NO, that would be leading them astray. So you have no arguement there. Also, here is a verse where Jesus recieved wine. It appears that he was offered it many times on the cross but did not drink it until it was finished (or at the very end).

Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The word there for Vinegar is the greek word "oxos".
Oxos=
1) vinegar; a) the mixture of sour wine or vinegar and water which the Roman soldiers were accustomed to drink

It was definately fermented.

[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

Just curious, I don't recall Jesus as participating when He turned the water into wine. Can you show me where Jesus participated in drinking other than during the last supper or at meals?

Isn't drinking at meals enough? The times we see Christ participating in the consumption of alcohol He was doing so publically with no adverse effects on His witness.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

Isn't drinking at meals enough? The times we see Christ participating in the consumption of alcohol He was doing so publically with no adverse effects on His witness.

Yes, but remember, in his time it wasn't taboo for a "good" Christian to drink. Now it is taboo. So of course it wouldn't have hindered his witness. But it might hinder ours if we did it today in the US.

[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Yes, but remember, in his time it wasn't taboo for a "good" Christian to drink. Now it is taboo. So of course it wouldn't have hindered his witness. But it might hinder ours if we did it today in the US.

Who's it hindering our witness for though? Non-Christians don't care, I know this for a fact. The only people I've ever seen have a problem with Christians drinking is other Christians who don't drink. The same goes for smoking. Non-believers could care less if they see a church-goer drinking. What sets us apart is excersising control and not being promiscuous like most partying, non-believing drinkers (not saying that all non-believers are promiscuous ).

[BobbyB]

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

Who's it hindering our witness for though? Non-Christians don't care, I know this for a fact. The only people I've ever seen have a problem with Christians drinking is other Christians who don't drink. The same goes for smoking. Non-believers could care less if they see a church-goer drinking. What sets us apart is excersising control and not being promiscuous like most partying, non-believing drinkers (not saying that all non-believers are promiscuous ).

That's funny because I don't know how many times I have heard from non-christians that the reason they don't go to church is that the church is full of hypocrites, who go to church on Sunday after being out at the clubs on Saturday night and act just like everyone else throughout the week.

[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

That's funny because I don't know how many times I have heard from non-christians that the reason they don't go to church is that the church is full of hypocrites, who go to church on Sunday after being out at the clubs on Saturday night and act just like everyone else throughout the week.

Several key things should be addressed in what you've heard from non-Christians:
- Full of hypocrites; Say that drinking is bad but drink anyways. Why are we saying drinking's bad to begin with?
- Act just like everyone else throughout the week; what does this have to do with drinking? I drink and I don't act like everyone else during the week. I act the same during the week as I do in church - ask anyone who knows me. If people are "playing church" then they're obviously going to church for the wrong reasons and in those cases, their problems are much more deeply rooted than their desire to drink alcohol.

[BobbyB]

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

Several key things should be addressed in what you've heard from non-Christians:
- Full of hypocrites; Say that drinking is bad but drink anyways. Why are we saying drinking's bad to begin with?
- Act just like everyone else throughout the week; what does this have to do with drinking? I drink and I don't act like everyone else during the week. I act the same during the week as I do in church - ask anyone who knows me. If people are "playing church" then they're obviously going to church for the wrong reasons and in those cases, their problems are much more deeply rooted than their desire to drink alcohol.

What I'm saying is perception is reality to the person observing your behavior.
You're non-christian friends surely don't care if you drink because they probably know you well enough to know your convictions and beliefs.
What about the person who is seeing you from a distance and thinks you're just like everybody else? They see you drinking with your friends, probably laughing, if your with non-christian friends could be laughing at inapropriate jokes and language. You may never get a chance to talk with them, but could leave a false perception in their mind. To them it is reality. Now before you think this is a personal attack or anything, I don't know you or your behavior. I'm just laying out a scenario.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

Who's it hindering our witness for though? Non-Christians don't care, I know this for a fact. The only people I've ever seen have a problem with Christians drinking is other Christians who don't drink. The same goes for smoking. Non-believers could care less if they see a church-goer drinking. What sets us apart is excersising control and not being promiscuous like most partying, non-believing drinkers (not saying that all non-believers are promiscuous ).

Ah, but believers are also who that verse is for.

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

So you're still not helping yourself there. And no, you are wrong. It isn't a fact, it's an opinion. Your opinion. Which I don't hold. As I've said before, I have lead some unbelievers to Christ through acting like what they thought a Christian should be (i.e. not cussing especially.). Also, stereotypical Christians aren't the only ones who think drinking is wrong. Alcoholism affects everyone. Drinking alcohol doesn't naturally lead to alcoholism if done in moderation, but alcoholism can't be done without drinking alcohol. So nonbelievers also believe that a person of morals shouldn't drink.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

What about the person who is seeing you from a distance and thinks you're just like everybody else?

In what way aren't we like anyone else? If you prick a Christian, do they not bleed? Doth a Christian have eyes? Indeed, we're called to a higher standard, but that higher standard doesn't require us to make immoral things that are not immoral.

They see you drinking with your friends, probably laughing, if your with non-christian friends could be laughing at inapropriate jokes and language. You may never get a chance to talk with them, but could leave a false perception in their mind.

Indeed, a false perception is bad. Perhaps it would be our Christian duty to not play this charade that drinking and joviality is morally abhorrent.