[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Oh, I get what you mean. I was just furthering what you meant. I wasn't contradicting your statement. I was showing how it wouldn't be viable to use if the verse actually meant that. I was agreeing.

oh ok, now it makes sense to me.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Bryan

oh ok, now it makes sense to me.

Yeah, sorry about that. I had to read over what was said a few times before I realised that it looked like I was countering you by saying the exact same thing. lol

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

I am certainly not promoting legalism.

I'm sorry if I came off accusatively. I did not mean to say the point of view you are promoting is legaalistic, but rather that drinking, rather than showing that we are somehow not set apart, in fact shows that people are wrong in thinking that Christianity is about a bunch of indefensible rules, like the prohibition of drinking.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

A lot of my friends drink. I don't judge them for that, nor do I stop hanging around with them. I don't even try to convince them that it is wrong. If they see that I can be just as happy without drink as they can with it then maybe just maybe they might wonder why. If they wonder why they might ask. If they ask I can tell them that Jesus is more than enough to keep me buzzed.

The glad heart from alcohol is not apart from Jesus: it is from Him. In the Bible, we see time and again God giving alcohol as a blessing.

[BobbyB]

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

I'm sorry if I came off accusatively. I did not mean to say the point of view you are promoting is legaalistic, but rather that drinking, rather than showing that we are somehow not set apart, in fact shows that people are wrong in thinking that Christianity is about a bunch of indefensible rules, like the prohibition of drinking.

No problem. How do you set yourself apart unless you act differently?

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

The glad heart from alcohol is not apart from Jesus: it is from Him. In the Bible, we see time and again God giving alcohol as a blessing.

Not too many people that I know stop at just a "glad heart". Usually drinking leads to loosening up and letting down your guard. Once you enter into this state you are apt to truly conform to this world. If you think christians are immune to falling into sin through drinking, you're fooling yourself.

[Skeeter]

Christians are not immune from falling into sin from drinking, that is true. We're also not immune from falling into the sin of anger from a conversation with a friend. Should we stop having conversations? We're not immune from falling into the sin of gluttony from eating. I guess we should stop eating then...

I drink in moderation. I have never been drunk, and I plan on never being drunk. When I drink, I get a glad heart, a bit of a buzz, and I tend to laugh a little more obnoxiously than I normally do. But I don't get drunk.

[BobbyB]

Originally Posted by Skeeter

Christians are not immune from falling into sin from drinking, that is true. We're also not immune from falling into the sin of anger from a conversation with a friend. Should we stop having conversations? We're not immune from falling into the sin of gluttony from eating. I guess we should stop eating then...

I drink in moderation. I have never been drunk, and I plan on never being drunk. When I drink, I get a glad heart, a bit of a buzz, and I tend to laugh a little more obnoxiously than I normally do. But I don't get drunk.

But drinking is something we can choose not to participate in. You can use the other examples like conversation and eating if you like. But these are just diversions. I bet you get a little more buzzed then you think. Where do you draw the line on drunkeness? I bet you have probably crossed that line and not known it. Like Lightnight said earlier, if you drink you should do so in private lest you cause your brother to stumble.

I have known several alcoholics in my day that you would never know were drinking, but they were destroying there body the whole time. These friends of mine would use your same argument saying they are just drinking in moderation and not getting drunk. Please define drunkeness.

[exo]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

I am not saying that. Paul does state that we are slaves to sin. I'm not even saying drinking is a sin.

When it comes to drinking, how does the world look at it? I know that when I used to drink, I did things that I would not have normally done. I am not very proud of those things.

Which means that you were probably drunk. This is a sin.

Did it make me anyless saved at the time? No. Did I fit in with everybody else that was doing it? Yes.

Which is the sin of pride.

f I am to let my light shine so that the unsaved will see the good in me and praise my Father in heaven, drinking is not the way.

From what you described above, you are talking about being drunk and the sin of pride. We are talking about having a glass of wine with our meals.

The motives that people in the world that are not christians drink are not usually the nobalist of motives.

Right. And you can show them that one can have different motives when having a beer... such as, I don't know, taste.

Certainly going to movies and driving a car would not hurt your witness.

Really? What movies are you going to?

So I guess in your line of thinking if I wanted to go out and do a couple of lines of cocaine or smoke a little dope, then that would be ok as long as I did it in moderation.

No. Cocaine and dope both equate to 'drunkeness' even in very 'moderate' forms. Again, you are on the line of thinking that one must get drunk if they are to drink at all. We aren't talking about this at all.

[exo]

I am certainly not promoting legalism. A lot of my friends drink. I don't judge them for that, nor do I stop hanging around with them.

Christian friends? Are they getting drunk? If they are Christian and getting drunk, then you need to call them out on their sinful behavior.

I don't even try to convince them that it is wrong.

Again, if they are Christian and they are getting drunk, then I think you do need to convince them that drunkeness is wrong.

If they see that I can be just as happy without drink as they can with it then maybe just maybe they might wonder why. If they wonder why they might ask. If they ask I can tell them that Jesus is more than enough to keep me buzzed.

It sounds like they are non-Christian. OK, might they wonder why being a Christian means you cannot drink at all? If you do have one beer, and maintain self-control, maybe that would spur them on to wonder how you can keep yourself controlled? In other words, having nothing to drink could hurt your witness and having a drink could help your witness.

[exo]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

But drinking is something we can choose not to participate in. You can use the other examples like conversation and eating if you like. But these are just diversions. I bet you get a little more buzzed then you think. Where do you draw the line on drunkeness? I bet you have probably crossed that line and not known it. Like Lightnight said earlier, if you drink you should do so in private lest you cause your brother to stumble.

I have known several alcoholics in my day that you would never know were drinking, but they were destroying there body the whole time. These friends of mine would use your same argument saying they are just drinking in moderation and not getting drunk. Please define drunkeness.

Please define any manner of other subtleties to sin. Please define gluttony. Please define pride. Please define malice. Please define lust.

Unfortunately, your line of argumentation will never work. There are some subtleties to sin and its encroachment upon our lives. Many things can be used for good and the very same things can be used for evil.

[exo]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

No problem. How do you set yourself apart unless you act differently?

I am feeding the homeless. My atheist friend is feeding the homeless. How am I setting myself apart?

Not too many people that I know stop at just a "glad heart". Usually drinking leads to loosening up and letting down your guard. Once you enter into this state you are apt to truly conform to this world. If you think christians are immune to falling into sin through drinking, you're fooling yourself.

"Not too many people that I know stop at just a thought of her beauty. Usually looking leads to loosening up and letting down your guard. Once you enter into this state you are apt to truly conform to this world. If you think christians are immune to falling into sin through seeing a beautiful woman, you're fooling yourself."

Should we cover our women as the Muslims do? Or should we learn to be self-controlled and allow the Holy Spirit to work in our hearts and minds.

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

How do you set yourself apart unless you act differently?

I don't know that it is Biblical to understand our being set apart in this sense as being somehing we (setting ourselves apart) but rather something done to us by God.

I am not saying that our actions ought not be different from the pagan world around us. What I am saying, though, is that their actions are not what should dictate what we do and do not do, but rather God's Word must. It is clearly Biblically permissable to drink. Jesus drank. God proclaims alcohol as a blessing.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

Not too many people that I know stop at just a "glad heart".

Shall we prohibit women because not too many of the guys I know stop at just pure, righteous attraction?

Shall we prohibit cars because not too many people use them within the law?

Originally Posted by BobbyB

Usually drinking leads to loosening up and letting down your guard. Once you enter into this state you are apt to truly conform to this world.

Hasty generalization fallacy.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

If you think christians are immune to falling into sin through drinking, you're fooling yourself.

I don't, and I didn't give you the smallest reason to think so.

I offer a very real possibility: A person decides not to drink, and then sees a fellow Christian drinking, and feels that he is better than that person, as he has chosen the better, non-alcoholic path. Pride.

If you think Christians are immune to falling into sin through not drinking, you're fooling yourself.

I do not approve of sinful drinking, I approve of righteous, Biblical drinking. Please direct your critiques there.

[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

I used to drink but no longer do. When I did I used the same type reasons why it was ok according to the Bible. The one thing I can't help wondering now is what does it do to your witness. The Bible teaches that we are to no longer conform to the ways of this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. When you see a fellow Christian sitting at a table drinking and smoking with non-christians, what kind of witness can he/she have? What set's them apart? What kind of credibility do they have?

Just some thoughts.

What kind of witness can they have? I've had many a Christ-centered conversations with non-Christians over a beer. The only people that they person loses credibility with are other Christians that have a problem with drinking. I know many many unbelievers that know full well I'm a Christian and respect that and drink with me.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

When it comes to drinking, how does the world look at it? I know that when I used to drink, I did things that I would not have normally done. I am not very proud of those things. Did it make me anyless saved at the time? No. Did I fit in with everybody else that was doing it? Yes. If I am to let my light shine so that the unsaved will see the good in me and praise my Father in heaven, drinking is not the way. The motives that people in the world that are not christians drink are not usually the nobalist of motives. Certainly going to movies and driving a car would not hurt your witness. So I guess in your line of thinking if I wanted to go out and do a couple of lines of cocaine or smoke a little dope, then that would be ok as long as I did it in moderation.

Sure, if you go nuts and act like a heathen then it really doesn't matter what activity you're taking part in. As far as cocaine and dope, they're against the law, so doing it period is sinful.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

No problem. How do you set yourself apart unless you act differently?

Define "acting differently". I know plenty of Christians that "act differently" and the world has no respect for them. The way they act differently is by acting like they're perfect. However, if you "act differently" by enjoying those things that God's given us and living in such a way that God's glorified through you in those activities, then the world sees the light of Christ and sees an authentic human being.

Originally Posted by Bobby

Not too many people that I know stop at just a "glad heart". Usually drinking leads to loosening up and letting down your guard. Once you enter into this state you are apt to truly conform to this world. If you think christians are immune to falling into sin through drinking, you're fooling yourself.

Well sure Christians can fall into all sorts of sin. We can fall into sexual sin. Should we walk around bumping into walls because we're keeping our eyes shut all day? We can speed and get angry with other drivers. Should we stop driving. We can become greedy. Should we stop working? No, of course not. As Christians, we should be ever mindful of those things that can cause us to fall. We should always be on our guard, but that doens't mean we build a spiritual fall-out shelter and hide from the world.

Basically, it comes down to this, and the verse supporting it was posted by Gavin (I believe) earlier. I have friends that don't approve of drinking. I don't drink around them. I have other friends that have no problem with it. I do drink with them. If you don't want to drink, there's nothing wrong with it, don't drink. If you want to drink and you can do so responsibily, then enjoy yourself (Christ and the disciples did ).

[Yojimbo]

Funny how cars and women always come up as the counterexamples in these kinds of discussions. Must be all that Maxim/FHM reading you guys are into.

[exo]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo

Funny how cars and women always come up as the counterexamples in these kinds of discussions. Must be all that Maxim/FHM reading you guys are into.

Reading in moderation, of course.

[Skeeter]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

But drinking is something we can choose not to participate in. You can use the other examples like conversation and eating if you like. But these are just diversions. I bet you get a little more buzzed then you think. Where do you draw the line on drunkeness? I bet you have probably crossed that line and not known it. Like Lightnight said earlier, if you drink you should do so in private lest you cause your brother to stumble.

I have known several alcoholics in my day that you would never know were drinking, but they were destroying there body the whole time. These friends of mine would use your same argument saying they are just drinking in moderation and not getting drunk. Please define drunkeness.

Trust me, I have never been drunk. Actually, I've never had more than one drink at a time. I have never had enough alcohol at one time to come even close to being drunk. Please don't accuse me of sins I don't commit; I have enough trouble with the ones I do commit.

Why should I drink in private rather than with my friends who also drink? I find that it is actually community building. I wouldn't drink in front of a brother who considered it a sin, but I would discuss the subject with him.

I would definte drunkenness as being the state where you would do something that would otherwise be anaethema to you. If you're in a state where you can no longer control your judgement and the actions of your body, I'd say you're drunk. I've never even come close to that state.