[BobbyB]

I used to drink but no longer do. When I did I used the same type reasons why it was ok according to the Bible. The one thing I can't help wondering now is what does it do to your witness. The Bible teaches that we are to no longer conform to the ways of this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. When you see a fellow Christian sitting at a table drinking and smoking with non-christians, what kind of witness can he/she have? What set's them apart? What kind of credibility do they have?

Just some thoughts.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

When you see a fellow Christian sitting at a table drinking and smoking with non-christians, what kind of witness can he/she have? What set's them apart?

they're sober.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

I used to drink but no longer do. When I did I used the same type reasons why it was ok according to the Bible. The one thing I can't help wondering now is what does it do to your witness. The Bible teaches that we are to no longer conform to the ways of this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. When you see a fellow Christian sitting at a table drinking and smoking with non-christians, what kind of witness can he/she have? What set's them apart? What kind of credibility do they have?

Just some thoughts.

furthermore, you don't honestly believe that Paul means we have to abstain from what the world does when we are saved do you? Does that mean we can't go to the movies? Drive a car?

Paul can't possibly be talking about everything the world does. What sets the Chrstian apart from the reprobate is that the Chrstian strives to be sinless. That is how we are to no longer coform to the ways of this world, strive everyday to live a sinless life.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by BereanatHeart

Those are all good poinsts.

I like how you can point out the only reason that he had to come up with the idea of two different "wines" is because he was tryin to harmonize his misunderstanding of Prov. 23 with Duet. 14, and rather than doing so by changing his views on Prov. 23, he attempts to harmonize by using exegitical fallacy.

Okay, here's another questions I've been wondering about:

"When one drinks even the first drink effects him.
Slowed thought, a "relaxed feeling", impaired judgement. So if our body is
not ours but Gods why would we partake of ANY substance that even begins to
impair our Judgement and Higher Brain functions."

if we are not supposed to impair our minds in any way, why are we told to give strong drink to the man who has a bitter life so he can forget his poverty?

Proverbs 31:6-7
Give strong drink to him who is perishing,
And wine to him whose life is bitter.
Let him drink and forget his poverty
And remember his trouble no more.

[Bryan]

I love it when people like to use only one translation of the bible and not consider the others.

The Christian is to "abstain from all appearance of evil" (I Thes. 5: 22).

The KJV (and it's children) are the only version I know of that uses this language. All the other translations say "abtain from all kinds of evil". There is a huge difference. Basically this argument falls when you use another translation.

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

I used to drink but no longer do. When I did I used the same type reasons why it was ok according to the Bible. The one thing I can't help wondering now is what does it do to your witness. The Bible teaches that we are to no longer conform to the ways of this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

If the Bible does indeed approve of drinking, than doing so is nto conforming to the world at all: it is not a worldly thing. The world often does heroic things... shall we abstain from them because it wouild not set us apart? The world marries, shall we refrain from that? Nay, our standard is not to be set apart from the world by doing completely different things, but rather to be set apart unto God, being salt and light to this world, basing out actions off God, not the world we are in.

Further, what is it going to do against your witness. In my experience, it is usually the Christians, not the worldly people, who have a problem with alcohol. If anything, Christians doing these things can show that Christianity is not legalism and even reflect the abundant life Jesus has given us.

Originally Posted by BobbyB

When you see a fellow Christian sitting at a table drinking and smoking with non-christians, what kind of witness can he/she have? What set's them apart? What kind of credibility do they have?

May we also not eat and drink (not alcohol) at a table with non-Christians? What makes that any different? How is smoking and drinking (alcohol) more of a detriment to credability?

[Yojimbo]

We just need to sticky a thread that has all the pro-drinking arguments. This is getting less fun each time.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Good point.

Question, is a new wine always unfermented? I mean, what exactly qualifies as a new/old wine? You can buy wine from last year as far as I know. Maybe even this year. It is just as alcoholic.

Gavin grape juice is usually referred to as new wine simply because, if it isn't fermented now, it will be shortly. I don't think the scriptures are that plain as to give us the sell by date on new wine vs old, but several of the references to new wine, make better since if it is unfermented or just beginning the process. However, before anybody thinks I am arguing that Aaron Adams brewer statesmen ship should be limited to tea, there is definitely no condemnation of old wine.

Basically, it serves no real exegetical purpose to know, just kind of interesting.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Bryan

I love it when people like to use only one translation of the bible and not consider the others.

The KJV (and it's children) are the only version I know of that uses this language. All the other translations say "abtain from all kinds of evil". There is a huge difference. Basically this argument falls when you use another translation.

Some people think that being a Christian is evil. You should stop.

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

(It's refering to the medicine of the day)

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Some people think that being a Christian is evil. You should stop.

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

(It's refering to the medicine of the day)

what? This makes no sense to me.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Bryan

what? This makes no sense to me.

What I am saying is that just because someone finds something to be evil doesn't mean that it is or should be avoided. Christianity was (and still is in some areas) persecuted unto death. It was considered very evil. So obviously, the things which the Bible says is ok shouldn't be avoided for the sake of others.

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Now, if someone does not drink alcohol because of personal convictions, you cannot look down on them for this.

However, and this is important. You must be careful where you do drink alcohol at. It is vital. Because your witness may be damaged and it could cause someone to stumble. So I would suggest never drinking in public. Only in private with friends who are ok with it. Here's why.

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Bryan

what? This makes no sense to me.

Oh, I get what you mean. I was just furthering what you meant. I wasn't contradicting your statement. I was showing how it wouldn't be viable to use if the verse actually meant that. I was agreeing.

[BobbyB]

Originally Posted by Bryan

furthermore, you don't honestly believe that Paul means we have to abstain from what the world does when we are saved do you? Does that mean we can't go to the movies? Drive a car?

Paul can't possibly be talking about everything the world does. What sets the Chrstian apart from the reprobate is that the Chrstian strives to be sinless. That is how we are to no longer coform to the ways of this world, strive everyday to live a sinless life.

I am not saying that. Paul does state that we are slaves to sin. I'm not even saying drinking is a sin.

When it comes to drinking, how does the world look at it? I know that when I used to drink, I did things that I would not have normally done. I am not very proud of those things. Did it make me anyless saved at the time? No. Did I fit in with everybody else that was doing it? Yes. If I am to let my light shine so that the unsaved will see the good in me and praise my Father in heaven, drinking is not the way. The motives that people in the world that are not christians drink are not usually the nobalist of motives. Certainly going to movies and driving a car would not hurt your witness. So I guess in your line of thinking if I wanted to go out and do a couple of lines of cocaine or smoke a little dope, then that would be ok as long as I did it in moderation.

[BobbyB]

[QUOTE=Mike Graham]Further, what is it going to do against your witness. In my experience, it is usually the Christians, not the worldly people, who have a problem with alcohol. If anything, Christians doing these things can show that Christianity is not legalism and even reflect the abundant life Jesus has given us.QUOTE]

I am certainly not promoting legalism. A lot of my friends drink. I don't judge them for that, nor do I stop hanging around with them. I don't even try to convince them that it is wrong. If they see that I can be just as happy without drink as they can with it then maybe just maybe they might wonder why. If they wonder why they might ask. If they ask I can tell them that Jesus is more than enough to keep me buzzed.

[BobbyB]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

What I am saying is that just because someone finds something to be evil doesn't mean that it is or should be avoided. Christianity was (and still is in some areas) persecuted unto death. It was considered very evil. So obviously, the things which the Bible says is ok shouldn't be avoided for the sake of others.

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Now, if someone does not drink alcohol because of personal convictions, you cannot look down on them for this.

However, and this is important. You must be careful where you do drink alcohol at. It is vital. Because your witness may be damaged and it could cause someone to stumble. So I would suggest never drinking in public. Only in private with friends who are ok with it. Here's why.

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

This is all I was trying to say as well.