[Danny]

Originally Posted by plaid_child

Danny... you're absolutely right that Sen. Kerry's service in Vietnam should be honored.. and I would be completely against anyone who intentionally belittles veterans.

You mean like accusing that his medals were illegitimate, he was wounded from his own grenade, and was a drugged-out hippie? (I guess by that last line of logic, so am I, since I'm also anti-war in most circumstances....)

With that said, I have to point out 3 things...

1. Donny is right that there's nothing wrong with investigating to see if there was any wrongdoing. That accountability for our actions is a healthy and necessary part of our system.

Fully agreed. I don't see anything wrong with honestly investigating the record of a veteran for accountability, especially when that person is running for office.

2. You seem to think thay President Bush is behind the swift boat ads. While I would guess that the swift boat people want Bush to be re-elected, they are adults and can make their own decisions, so there's nothing the Bush white house can do legally to shut them up.

No no no no. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Bush and Cheney have both made statements to the effect that they respect Kerry's military service, and I respect that. It's not so much Bush I dislike (in that area, that is); it's his fan club.

3. The only people whom I would acknowledge after they criticize the service of Vietnam veterans are also Vietman veterans themselves. Essentially, if you weren't there, don't go there. The swift boat people have been there, so it is their right to criticize, whether they do it in the right way or not.

I've heard rumors floating around that the guy heading up the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" ads was originally recruited by the Nixon administration 30 years ago to smear Kerry's record when he was speaking out against the Vietnam war. I have doubts about their credibility, and really wouldn't doubt that they're nothing but government pawns in a dirty game of chess (...could that have been cheesier?). However, those rumors are completely unsubstantiated as far as I'm aware, so I'm not going to argue for them before doing more research on the subject.

4. Bush has done nothing but honor the record of Senator Kerry; he just has issues with his service afterward

I agree. I never meant to put the blame on Bush with my little rant.

[Qingu]

Didn't Karl Rove give legal advice to the Swift Vote veterans?

[+Donny]

(...could that have been cheesier?).

No.



And I agree with your post. Of course, democrats often blindly follow their party, too, so don't exclusively bash dumb conservatives.

[Gecko of Doom]

Originally Posted by Danny

(...could that have been cheesier?)

I'm sure I could think up something cheesier for you, if you want. I charge $35 an hour. PM me if you're interested.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by Danny

I've heard rumors floating around that the guy heading up the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" ads was originally recruited by the Nixon administration 30 years ago to smear Kerry's record when he was speaking out against the Vietnam war.

In "Up the River," a documentary about John Kerry's Vietnam experience that opened last week, it has audio tapes of Nixon, Erhlichman and Haldeman discussing this and bringing up the Swift Boat guy's name.

Didn't Karl Rove give legal advice to the Swift Vote veterans?

1. I don't think Rove is a lawyer.
2. If he did, he would be breaking Campaign Finance law.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by +Donny

And I agree with your post. Of course, democrats often blindly follow their party, too, so don't exclusively bash dumb conservatives.

Agreed. There are "Dumb liberals" just like there are "Dumb conservatives"; I was just offering my criticism of the most immediately relevent sect (it wouldn't make much sense to go off on a tirade admonishing blind liberals when there are none participating in this thread). But I do agree with your claim. Dan Rather, with his "The documents were forged, and we have proof! ...oh? We dont? Oh. Crap." and the whole, "Haha, Bush is a moron!" crowd fit into that category quite nicely, if you ask me.

[Qingu]

Aha. I was wrong. The lawyer's name was Brian Ginsberg; he resigned after it became clear he was working for both Bush and the Swift Boat people.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug26.html

I hate Karl Rove, however.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

In "Up the River," a documentary about John Kerry's Vietnam experience that opened last week, it has audio tapes of Nixon, Erhlichman and Haldeman discussing this and bringing up the Swift Boat guy's name.

That is to what I was referring. Except I haven't seen the film yet; I only read a review of it.

[maadio]

Originally Posted by Qingu

The original constitution allowed slavery and denied women and non-property owners the right to vote.

It was farsighted for the time it was written, but archaic and oppresive by my moral standards today.

I see what you mean... but I'd just take it in Historical context. Back then it was wildly radical stuff...

[maadio]

Originally Posted by Danny

No no no no. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Bush and Cheney have both made statements to the effect that they respect Kerry's military service, and I respect that. It's not so much Bush I dislike (in that area, that is); it's his fan club.

I agree. I never meant to put the blame on Bush with my little rant.

Just making sure. Please continue ranting in accordance with your first amendment rights/duties.

[saywhat?]

John Kerry on abortion.
As what I meant By -"it never happened"- it seems to be Kerrys Motto, as he is constantly lying.
Jun 20, 2003: "I am prepared to filibuster, if necessary, any Supreme Court nominee who would turn back the clock on a woman's right to choose..." FoxNews

Nov 7, 2003: Do you support the ban on partial-birth abortions recently signed into law? "I don't support the President's law because it doesn't allow the exception for situations where the health of the woman is at risk. I believe this is a dangerous effort to undermine a woman's right to choose, which is a constitutional amendment I will always fight to protect. " Concord Monitor / WashingtonPost.com on-line Q&A

Jul 5, 2004: I oppose abortion, personally. I don't like abortion. I believe life does begin at conception. Washington Post


George w. Bush, May have his faults as we ALL do, but at least he doesnt lie about them, and he stands on the same things he stood on a year or two or three or four years ago. That is why i like G.W.B.[/QUOTE]

John Kerry has not stated that he advocates abortion. He advocates the woman's right to choose(yes that allows abortion to be legal) and does not think that the government should determine what a woman chooses to do with her body. That right of choice is a a constitutional right according to the supreme court and that is what he is advocating. I think it is entirely possible to be pro-choice(for the reason stated above, not advocate abortion as a practice, and be a Christian too! Novel idea.

[maadio]

Originally Posted by saywhat?

John Kerry has not stated that he advocates abortion. He advocates the woman's right to choose(yes that allows abortion to be legal) and does not think that the government should determine what a woman chooses to do with her body. That right of choice is a a constitutional right according to the supreme court and that is what he is advocating. I think it is entirely possible to be pro-choice(for the reason stated above, not advocate abortion as a practice, and be a Christian too! Novel idea.

So you would advocate a woman's right to commit infanticide?

[JerryLove]

So you would advocate a woman's right to commit infanticide?

No one has found that a constitutionally protected right... so "no".

[maadio]

I'm still curious about how in the world they got the ninth amendment to support the "pro-choice" side. That just doesn't look like it's in the ninth amendment.

[saywhat?]

Originally Posted by plaid_child

So you would advocate a woman's right to commit infanticide?

I did not say that I would advocate either side. I simply pointed out where I understand John Kerry to be on this issue. Also, as I understand the Supreme Court to operate, their decisions (i.e. Roe v Wade) is upheld by their interpretation of what the constitution allows.