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Unread 09-21-2004, 01:09 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony
I think I agree with this, though believe it to be a relatively new trend in worship planning, at least in the way we're discussing it.

There are more liturgical traditions that would say it's more important for the pieces of a worship service be true and excellent than thematically connected, which would make it even more important to scrutinize the song texts.

While we may not land on the same side on each questionable song, I generally appreciate this type of discussion, as it helps to make us all more deliberate, thoughtful worship planners.
A lot of the ancient (read: from the medieval period and earlier) liturgical traditions of the church were very focused on theme and content, especially as it related to certain times of the church year. Besides the things that stayed the same all the time (the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo [Creed], etc), all the other sung elements of the mass (the Catholic church was the dominant church for centuries) would all focus on a theme that was appropriate to the time of year. There were Alleluia's for Easter, Advent, Christmas, etc; and the same was true for all other elements of the service (the introductory song, the communion songs, etc).

Just an interesting tidbit that shows that thematic worship leading is not really that new of an idea.

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Nate

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Unread 09-21-2004, 01:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrimes87
"I Can Only Imagine" poses problems for me. Using a song that says "I wonder what heaven will be like", or even "God, what will heaven be like?" or "what will I do in heaven?" ...just seems out of place and (no offence), irrelevant in a setting where the rest of the songs are saying (or, IMO, should be saying) "God, I love you", or "thank you Jesus", or "I want more of you", etc.

I've always seen worship songs as having a sort of purpose. I choose songs for my set that are relevant to what I feel God is doing in our church, or that are relevant to what myself and our Pastor feel God wants to do in that particular meeting.
If we're planning a service that's based around Easter, and the 'theme' of the service is planned to be "the cross"...I pick out songs like "The Wonderful Cross", "Here I Am" (Paul Oakley), and "I will never be the same". Songs that are relevant to the cross and salvation. I wouldn't pick out songs with themes like "prayer", "healing", or even songs that are of praise to God the Father (since the theme is based around the sacrifice of God the Son). Relevence is very important in picking a worship set.

With that said, I've never found a place for "I Can Only Imagine". The song seems to say, as I said above, "I wonder what heaven will be like", or "God, what will heaven be like?" or "what will I do in heaven?". The only relevent situation I've found for that song is in singing a special, or perhaps as the last song before the Pastor gives a message about heaven.

Does anyone else view it this way? Does anyone else have problems with its relevence in congregational worship?
I don't think "I Can Only Imagine" is focusing on just going "I wonder what heaven will be like." I think its a much deeper song than that. The idea is that God is so wonderful, so awsome, so awe inspiring, so beautiful, so magnificent, so....... that "I can only imagine" what it will be like to be in His awsome precense. And my imagination can NEVER do Him justice. Its all focused on how awsome and infinite God is and how finite we are. Its not a mere musing about "I wonder what heaven is like."
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Unread 09-21-2004, 01:55 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elijah77jc
sorry to interrupt, but why is this?
The line says "You thought of me, ABOVE ALL." That statement simply isn't true and puts God's focus on man. However, in reality God thought of Himself above all. We are not an end in and of ourselves. The other uses of "above all" in the song don't carry the same flawed meaning as that one use, so they don't need to be changed.
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Unread 09-21-2004, 02:28 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate
A lot of the ancient (read: from the medieval period and earlier) liturgical traditions of the church were very focused on theme and content, especially as it related to certain times of the church year. Besides the things that stayed the same all the time (the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo [Creed], etc), all the other sung elements of the mass (the Catholic church was the dominant church for centuries) would all focus on a theme that was appropriate to the time of year. There were Alleluia's for Easter, Advent, Christmas, etc; and the same was true for all other elements of the service (the introductory song, the communion songs, etc).

Just an interesting tidbit that shows that thematic worship leading is not really that new of an idea.

In His love,
Nate
Of course you're right, Nate. But I was referring to "contemporary" worship planning, which I would narrow to the last 25 years or so, at least from my observation. Ancient worship is usually quite thematic.
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Unread 09-21-2004, 03:01 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean
The line says "You thought of me, ABOVE ALL." That statement simply isn't true and puts God's focus on man. However, in reality God thought of Himself above all. We are not an end in and of ourselves. The other uses of "above all" in the song don't carry the same flawed meaning as that one use, so they don't need to be changed.
what i think it means is, above all the hurt and pain he went through to get to the cross he thought of me
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Unread 09-21-2004, 03:23 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texandawg1288
what i think it means is, above all the hurt and pain he went through to get to the cross he thought of me
I'm not sure I see how you can get that from the context of the song.
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Unread 09-21-2004, 04:25 PM   #37
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Quote:

Crucified
Laid behind a stone
You lived to die
Rejected and alone
Like a rose
Trampled on the ground
You took the fall
And thought of me
Above all

He thought of me above all the those things in that chorus that were happening to Him. He could have made the choice to not think of me above those beatings and pain he recieved and saved himself but, He didn't, he thought of me above all.
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Unread 09-21-2004, 04:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texandawg1288
He thought of me above all the those things in that chorus that were happening to Him. He could have made the choice to not think of me above those beatings and pain he recieved and saved himself but, He didn't, he thought of me above all.
Right but the chorus must be taken within the context of the rest of the song. The lyrics for the song as a whole don't define "all" as "all the pain he recieved." The song defines "all" as in "above all power, above all kings...." Within the context of the song "all" is being defined as everything. The tagline then says "you thought of me, above everything." It doesn't make any sense to claim the song is refering to beatings and thus the tagline would mean "you thought of me, above all the beatings." That just doesn't make sense in the context of the song.
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Unread 09-21-2004, 07:39 PM   #39
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when i worship im thinking he choose me above all..so it works for me
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Unread 09-21-2004, 07:44 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texandawg1288
when i worship im thinking he choose me above all..so it works for me
The point Sean's been trying to make, though, is that some people would argue that you are wrong in that thinking, because Christ did not think of you "above all".

If he is correct, and Christ didn't really think of you above all (I'm still unsure where I would stand on this theological issue), then you are not worshipping in truth, and therefore not fulfilling the second half of the John 4 mandate.

That "works" for you?

In His love,
Nate
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Unread 09-21-2004, 08:00 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate
The point Sean's been trying to make, though, is that some people would argue that you are wrong in that thinking, because Christ did not think of you "above all".

If he is correct, and Christ didn't really think of you above all (I'm still unsure where I would stand on this theological issue), then you are not worshipping in truth, and therefore not fulfilling the second half of the John 4 mandate.

That "works" for you?

In His love,
Nate
But I see it different and view it different and recieve it different. When I sing that, in my head I will think, wow he did all this for me and thought of me above all the pain he went through. But Christ did think about me above all, the chorus says of all the stuff that He went through then says he thought of me above all. So I'm not saying your wrong Sean, well im not trying to. But you just see it different than I do.
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Unread 09-21-2004, 09:16 PM   #42
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I read a great line a while back..."The only person who thinks of me above all is...me."
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Unread 09-22-2004, 04:46 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texandawg1288
when i worship im thinking he choose me above all..so it works for me
I agree with this.
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Unread 09-22-2004, 04:54 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidt
I agree with this.
I don't deny that you CAN sing it and mean something different, but the song itself doesn't say your meaning. I could a psalm from the Q'uran and sing it to God, but that doesn't change the fact that the psalm itself was written to an idol and is thus bad theologically.
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Unread 09-22-2004, 09:58 PM   #45
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Days of Elijah

Im surprised nobody has noticed this one.. just tell me one thing that is wrong with the following segment of that song.

"And these are the days of
Your servant David
Rebuilding a temple of praise"

Did David rebuild the temple? NO! i don't think so! Wasn't David specifically told by God that he was not allowed to build the temple? YES! It was Solomon who rebuilt the temple of praise... this one always makes me angry
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