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Unread 01-20-2005, 11:39 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Sean
If it takes a 10 paragraph essay to explain how a line isn't idolatrous I think its better and safer to just change the line or nix the song altogether.
But, dude, you're the one who's pursuing the conversation and criticizing the song. The length of the explanation has nothing to do with anything.

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That's why Jesus would use a 5-10 watt tube combo. Then Jesus can get that nice breakup He likes at a manageable volume. A volume that is somewhat formal but still says I'm here to party. Much like tuxedo t-shirt Jesus.
"If all experienced God in the same way and returned Him an identical worship, the song of the Church triumphant would have no symphony, it would be like an orchestra in which all the instruments played the same note." - C.S. Lewis
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Unread 01-20-2005, 12:46 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by niangelo
But, dude, you're the one who's pursuing the conversation and criticizing the song. The length of the explanation has nothing to do with anything.
...right, because the song has a line in it that is rather blatantly wrong. To explain away the obvious theological problem you're having to write 10 paragraph explanations that really don't explain anything away. It really doesn't matter how long your explanation is, the line "You thought of me ABOVE ALL" is simply not theologically correct.
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Unread 01-20-2005, 02:24 PM   #183
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"You thought of me- ABOVE ALL"- This is an interesting line. I've always considered it conceptually when I have sung the song TWO not ONE thougts. The first thought is Jesus (really the Father) was thinking of me, not individually necessarily, but as part of the Body of Christ. The second thought, separate from the first, is "ABOVE ALL" is short for You (Jesus) are Above All. That is how I think most people, whether they are on the worship team or not think about the lyrics of that song. Jesus is Above All. He did think of His Church when He was on the cross, but HE is above all, not us. Those are my thoughts on that line- Jonathan
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Unread 01-20-2005, 02:30 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Jbkrems
"You thought of me- ABOVE ALL"- This is an interesting line. I've always considered it conceptually when I have sung the song TWO not ONE thougts. The first thought is Jesus (really the Father) was thinking of me, not individually necessarily, but as part of the Body of Christ. The second thought, separate from the first, is "ABOVE ALL" is short for You (Jesus) are Above All. That is how I think most people, whether they are on the worship team or not think about the lyrics of that song. Jesus is Above All. He did think of His Church when He was on the cross, but HE is above all, not us. Those are my thoughts on that line- Jonathan
I have never interpreted the line that way. That and the fact that the song is just too precious (see my response on the 1st page of this thread), we don't do it at my church.

I'm glad that those that are singing it are not doing it thoughtlessly, however.
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Unread 01-20-2005, 02:59 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Tony
I have never interpreted the line that way. That and the fact that the song is just too precious (see my response on the 1st page of this thread), we don't do it at my church.

I'm glad that those that are singing it are not doing it thoughtlessly, however.
Exactly, it should have only taken the Kermit test to decide if the song doesn't work.
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Unread 03-09-2005, 08:16 PM   #186
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I remember reading through this thread a long while ago, and I finally found it again.

I have trouble with the song Your Grace Is Enough by Chris Tomlin. The first line says, "Great is Your faithfulness oh God." Okay, then the next: "You wrestle with the sinner's heart." Now I may be missing out on something theologically, but that makes God sound weak. What do you guys think?

And also, I tend to cringe whenver I sing songs in which I make a promise. Especially because during worship, we tend to repeat choruses, and whenever a chorus says "I surrender all to You" (Surrender by Vineyard) or "I love you more than life" (More Than Life by Hillsong United), I feel so guilty because I often don't act like I'm completely surrendered to God or like I love God more than anything else. Obviously, that is the goal I strive for, but to say that outright makes me queasy.
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Unread 03-09-2005, 08:30 PM   #187
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I rearranged my room today and found my old Third Day Offerings II album, and I'm listening to "Show Me Your Glory" now. I like the song, but I'm beginning to think that seeing God's glory is not a good thing. I mean, when Moses saw God's glory, he aged 40 years in a matter of days. And other such things. I mean, didn't people die when they saw His glory, or am I confusing it with His holiness?

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Unread 03-09-2005, 08:59 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by spmantar
And also, I tend to cringe whenver I sing songs in which I make a promise. Especially because during worship, we tend to repeat choruses, and whenever a chorus says "I surrender all to You" (Surrender by Vineyard) or "I love you more than life" (More Than Life by Hillsong United), I feel so guilty because I often don't act like I'm completely surrendered to God or like I love God more than anything else. Obviously, that is the goal I strive for, but to say that outright makes me queasy.
funny you mention 2 songs that have almost identical melody lines in the chorus...

honestly, as soon as i heard "more than life" for the first time i was like "they ripped off vineyard's surrender!" anyway...

but yeah staying on topic, i agree... kinda like singing "Everyday it's you i live for"... is it really?
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Unread 03-09-2005, 10:00 PM   #189
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funny you mention 2 songs that have almost identical melody lines in the chorus...

honestly, as soon as i heard "more than life" for the first time i was like "they ripped off vineyard's surrender!" anyway...

but yeah staying on topic, i agree... kinda like singing "Everyday it's you i live for"... is it really?
Yeah, I just realized that. Since I play guitar for our church worship band, I know exactly what you're talking about. The whole Em D/F# G thing. And that song, Everyday, that too, although IIRC the actual lyrics are "Everyday it's you I'll live for." Same qualm though.
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Unread 03-10-2005, 01:51 AM   #190
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Okay, I read through most of this thread most of this thread and saw a lot people posting about how we need to worship in spirit and in truth. That is ABSOLUTELY correct, but doesn't the Bible also say that God looks at the heart?? I understand what a lot of you guys are saying and even can agree with some of your points, but, if you're honestly and truly worshipping God, if you're heart is in the right place, then does it matter that one word of a song makes it theologically "incorrect". Yeah, we need to check things against scripture and if you feel a conviction against a certain song for whatever reasons, you shouldn't sing it but to say that it's wrong for anyone to sing that song, is just not right. For example: I love the song More than life. I can honestly say that at all times, I love God more than life. Maybe I don't always LIVE that way, but if I were to ever step back and ask myself that question, the answer would always be yes. Maybe that's just me and has to do with all that I've been through in life. Maybe, because of my experiences, I have been brought to a place where I can always say that and others may not be there yet. Whatever the case, I can sing that song and mean it every time. Basically, my point is that worship is a heart issue. When I hear God saying that we are to worship in spirit and in truth, I think that it means that we are to be truthful to our feelings, thoughts, desires and heart while we are worshipping. There have been several times where things were awful for me, I could not see or feel God in my situation and I didn't know where to turn to find him. Durring those times I would sit and worship God, but not in the way that you may normally think of worship. I would sing about how I couldn't feel him and that I didn't know if he was there. That was worshipping in truth for me because that's exactly where I was at that time. No, it's not "theologically correct" because we all know that God is always there with us, but it's how I felt, it was the state of my heart. I COULD not sit and sing about how God is always there with me when my heart did not feel that way. I KNEW it was the truth, but my heart just was not there. If you are singing a song that is theologically correct in every way but you're heart is not there, I would say you are not worshipping in truth. Like I said before, I think you're right to evaluate songs against scripture, but ultimately it comes down to your heart.
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Unread 03-10-2005, 02:09 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by spmantar
And also, I tend to cringe whenver I sing songs in which I make a promise. Especially because during worship, we tend to repeat choruses, and whenever a chorus says "I surrender all to You" (Surrender by Vineyard) or "I love you more than life" (More Than Life by Hillsong United), I feel so guilty because I often don't act like I'm completely surrendered to God or like I love God more than anything else. Obviously, that is the goal I strive for, but to say that outright makes me queasy.
Just as I wrote on a previous page of this thread, you would have to throw out most of David's psalms, because he says things like "on my bed I think about you during day and night." Do you think he was thinking about God while he was sinning with Bathsheba? Just because he is making a blanket statement, doesn't mean it's incorrect.

Why don't we throw out our wedding vows while we're at it, because I'm sure there are many times in our marriages where we don't fulfill what we claimed we are going to do or will do or are doing right now.
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Unread 03-10-2005, 03:06 AM   #192
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Good points Lyssa and Adam. This may or may not be related, but as a worship guitarist who sings and plays, it's often hard to keep from getting distracted from genuine worship by the technical aspects of playing music. Often, I would tell myself, "All right focus now, it's more than the music." I would repeat that to myself in my mind over and over during the worship set. And by the second to last or last song of the set, I would finally free myself to worship God. I've thought and discussed that experience with other members of the team, and I think it's best that instead of consciously thinking, "Worship God, worship God, focus, focus," it is better to just keep my mind free, just offer myself as a living sacrifice, and really worship in spirit and truth. Even though I'm singing a song that isn't as genuinely sung as I would like to, God sees my heart. He knows my circumstances, and He knows what I'm trying to sing to Him. He knows that I'm also offering through my music-making, and that as long as I believe the fundamental truth to the song, it doesn't matter if I mean every single word in the song.

This may draw a parallel to what you guys had to say. Now I haven't been married, but I've heard that if a husband has lost that passionate love for his wife and hasn't been committed to her recently, it helps to pretend like he loves her. That might seem dry and trite at first, but it really does help him to force himself to buy flowers or a card for his wife, to remind himself that it isn't always about satisfaction and bliss that makes up love. At first, his "I love you"s may not be genuine, but eventually he will remember that original marriage vow and become more genuine as the remembrance takes place.

It's not a perfect analogy, but I'll keep what you guys said in mind. I know that at times, I do live for God, I do love Him more than life, and I do surrender it all. Remembering those sacrifices, I will lift the song up even more. On the flip side, the song will also remind me of those times when I have not been faithful, and it will encourage me to strive for the righteous life.

Just wondering Adam, how many of the Psalms were actually meant to be songs? Are any of them just poems? Because I know that many of the songs are saturated with emotions like rage and sorrow. But are they actually songs of worship or cries lifted up to God?

I like discussion. Ack, school takes up a lot of my time, though.
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Unread 03-10-2005, 08:18 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by LyssaJane
Okay, I read through most of this thread most of this thread and saw a lot people posting about how we need to worship in spirit and in truth. That is ABSOLUTELY correct, but doesn't the Bible also say that God looks at the heart?? I understand what a lot of you guys are saying and even can agree with some of your points, but, if you're honestly and truly worshipping God, if you're heart is in the right place, then does it matter that one word of a song makes it theologically "incorrect". Yeah, we need to check things against scripture and if you feel a conviction against a certain song for whatever reasons, you shouldn't sing it but to say that it's wrong for anyone to sing that song, is just not right. For example: I love the song More than life. I can honestly say that at all times, I love God more than life. Maybe I don't always LIVE that way, but if I were to ever step back and ask myself that question, the answer would always be yes. Maybe that's just me and has to do with all that I've been through in life. Maybe, because of my experiences, I have been brought to a place where I can always say that and others may not be there yet. Whatever the case, I can sing that song and mean it every time. Basically, my point is that worship is a heart issue. When I hear God saying that we are to worship in spirit and in truth, I think that it means that we are to be truthful to our feelings, thoughts, desires and heart while we are worshipping. There have been several times where things were awful for me, I could not see or feel God in my situation and I didn't know where to turn to find him. Durring those times I would sit and worship God, but not in the way that you may normally think of worship. I would sing about how I couldn't feel him and that I didn't know if he was there. That was worshipping in truth for me because that's exactly where I was at that time. No, it's not "theologically correct" because we all know that God is always there with us, but it's how I felt, it was the state of my heart. I COULD not sit and sing about how God is always there with me when my heart did not feel that way. I KNEW it was the truth, but my heart just was not there. If you are singing a song that is theologically correct in every way but you're heart is not there, I would say you are not worshipping in truth. Like I said before, I think you're right to evaluate songs against scripture, but ultimately it comes down to your heart.
Personally, I believe that we should definetly have songs with promises in them. The problem I see today is that MOST people that sing the songs sing them half-heartedly, not really thinking about what they're saying. If you're honestly singing from the heart and making commitments to God that you do intend to keep, bravo! It's just that for the majority of people, they don't really care about the promises that they're making... And that I find disturbing.

In other words, sing promises, just be very careful about them, God will hold you to them.

And if you're a worship leader, I believe you should warn your congregation to mean what they're saying.
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Unread 03-11-2005, 12:10 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by spmantar
Just wondering Adam, how many of the Psalms were actually meant to be songs? Are any of them just poems? Because I know that many of the songs are saturated with emotions like rage and sorrow. But are they actually songs of worship or cries lifted up to God?
Well, a lot of them say "to the tune of..." or "with stringed instruments", so I assume they are songs, unless they are supposed to be said at a poetry reading in Seattle or something.
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Unread 03-11-2005, 12:11 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by spmantar
Just wondering Adam, how many of the Psalms were actually meant to be songs? Are any of them just poems? Because I know that many of the songs are saturated with emotions like rage and sorrow. But are they actually songs of worship or cries lifted up to God?
I don't think poetry and songwriting used to be quite as separate of artforms as they are today. As always, I could be wrong.

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