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Unread 12-07-2004, 06:58 PM   #136
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honestly i see no problem in that line.

we sing at our church a line that says "I love you more than life"

no one i know has a problem with that!

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Unread 12-07-2004, 06:59 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Tea
I'd imagine you'd have a theological problem with singing, "Shiva, I am so in love with you," right?
yeah but that isn't true so there would be no reason why i would sing it!
singing "Jesus I am so in love with You", although maybe some people would be uncomfortable putting it like that, is true.

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Unread 12-07-2004, 07:05 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by I-Am-Snappy
yeah but that isn't true so there would be no reason why i would sing it!
singing "Jesus I am so in love with You", although maybe some people would be uncomfortable putting it like that, is true.

God Bless, Rich
Honestly, it's not true. That's why I don't like it.

"In love with you," means something to me. "I love you," means something different. One is true of my relationship with God; one is not. Again, maybe I'm weird....but I don't think I know anyone who would say they're in love with their mom.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 03:48 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Jay Tea
Again, maybe I'm weird....but I don't think I know anyone who would say they're in love with their mom.
I find it notable that your mom has nothing to do with the argument.

Again, we are the bride of Christ. Is a bride not to be in love with her groom?
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Unread 12-08-2004, 03:52 PM   #140
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But it is a notable distinction between loving and being "in love"

"in love", in my veiw, connotes a definiate romantic aspect. Although we have metaphors about the Church as Christ's bride, I dont' know if that legitimizes an eros type love in our theology, especially on and individual basis.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 05:20 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Tea
but I don't think I know anyone who would say they're in love with their mom.
No, but I'm in love with Stacy's mom.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 05:27 PM   #142
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Unread 12-08-2004, 06:16 PM   #143
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It's a good point that there's a difference between "in love" and "love", and the former does have a romantic connotation, no doubt. But no more romantic connotation than the phrase "bride of Christ".

We've used Let My Words Be Few in congregational worship before, and I've heard the song lots of times before. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with it until now. haha. Sorry Jay Tea. I guess you're wierd ...
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Unread 12-21-2004, 09:04 PM   #144
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THIS IS REDICULOUS!
In worship one of the things we do is tell God our heart's desire.
If we only sang songs that would always be completly true in our life, and not asking God to come in and mold is to him, I wouldn't be able to find any songs.
And to argue in response to "You Said" by Reuben Morgan:
I believe that their is power in the words of the saints.
"Life and Death is in the power of the tongue", its Speaking prophetically.
When Jesus left he said he was going and he would send someone GREATER in his stead that we might do greater things (obviously I'm not a cesassionist).
We all tell our family we love them, but sometimes we screw up. God knows that and still accepts our desire to tell him we love him.
Children make mistakes all the time, they also tell their parents they love them all the time, it doesn't mean they are lying.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 01:39 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reidwwall
THIS IS REDICULOUS!
........


Quote:
In worship one of the things we do is tell God our heart's desire.
If we only sang songs that would always be completly true in our life, and not asking God to come in and mold is to him, I wouldn't be able to find any songs.
I agree with you to a point.

Quote:
And to argue in response to "You Said" by Reuben Morgan:
I believe that their is power in the words of the saints.
"Life and Death is in the power of the tongue", its Speaking prophetically.
When Jesus left he said he was going and he would send someone GREATER in his stead that we might do greater things (obviously I'm not a cesassionist).
We all tell our family we love them, but sometimes we screw up. God knows that and still accepts our desire to tell him we love him.
Children make mistakes all the time, they also tell their parents they love them all the time, it doesn't mean they are lying.
Yeah, but we don't go around writing songs that twist Scripture and put them on albums and sell a ton of copies.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 10:19 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reidwwall
In worship one of the things we do is tell God our heart's desire.
A very good point, but not the only aspect. What is the core of our worship of God? I think it is us giving him the honor and glory He is due-whether through song or other means. Obviously, for this discussion we're limiting the definition of worship to music and songs.

Quote:
If we only sang songs that would always be completly true in our life, and not asking God to come in and mold is to him, I wouldn't be able to find any songs.
I usually try to pick songs that focus on God and what He has done and my sinful nature and need for redemption. Then I'm singing truthfully. Ever get caught up on singing "Every move i make i make in You"? I sure do.

If we are asking God to come and mold us to him, we want to do that in a very biblical way. While God works supernaturally, he also works amazingly through things like us studying and meditating on the Bible. Point being, it's important to have a solid biblical core to songs so that we don't use the powerful thing that music is in a way that isn't as glorifying to God as it could/should be.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 05:06 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reidwwall
THIS IS REDICULOUS!
In worship one of the things we do is tell God our heart's desire.
If we only sang songs that would always be completly true in our life, and not asking God to come in and mold is to him, I wouldn't be able to find any songs.
What's the problem with that? Write them. At any rate, no one said that we shouldn't ask God to come in and conform us to the image of His Son. But let's set that alongside the songs we have a theological problem with.

Asking God to conform us to the image of His Son presupposes that we are not finished in that regard. For example, it would be a true statement to say, "I love God, and I pray He will continue to sanctify me in His grace." It would not be a true statement to say, "I love God with all my heart, all the time." By the same token, many of us have a problem singing songs that claim what is not true, but we don't have a problem with songs that ask God to sanctify us. So, for example, I hate the song "Blessed Assurance," because the chorus claims that the singer praises the Savior "all the day long." This is a false statement. It is a LIE. Lying is not good worship.

Quote:
And to argue in response to "You Said" by Reuben Morgan:
I believe that their is power in the words of the saints.
"Life and Death is in the power of the tongue", its Speaking prophetically.
When Jesus left he said he was going and he would send someone GREATER in his stead that we might do greater things (obviously I'm not a cesassionist).
First of all, the song takes the verses out of context. Psalm 2 shows the Father declaring to the Son that He has given the earth to Him. The song makes it out as though God is giving the nations to us. Second of all, the Scriptures say that Christ would send another Helper to us; never is the Holy Spirit called greater than the Son. Third, cessationists do not ignore the Scriptures. However, modern day charismatics tend to make assumptions about interpretation that I believe are uncalled for. I answered this very issue recently:
Quote:
Originally Posted by I
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneHope
"12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. "
John 14:12-14
May God bless the reading of His Word. But Christ says that the faithful will do greater things. What is greater? The preaching and teaching of the Word are greater than speaking in tongues and healing men and women. Back up a bit...

Joh 14:8 Philip *said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9 Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
Joh 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.


What are the works that Christ is talking about? You need to prove from the Scriptures that Christ is talking about healings, before you use this passage in support of that claim.

Quote:
"27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
2 Cor. 12:27-14

And the greater gifts are that of being apostles, prophets, and teachers.

Quote:
Sorry, but this is something I'm really struggling with and need answers too.
No problem. I think the issue comes from misunderstanding the importance of various gifts. The gift of healing, whether we see it today in our churches or not, is much less important than the preaching of the Gospel. The real question to ask is, "Is the Gospel being preached in the Episcopal Church today?"

To take what Isaac (Ridley's Own) was saying a little further, don't you think it is a more amazing thing for the Lord Christ to break the chains of sin and death in the life of a sinner, to transform that person and conform that person in the image of Jesus, to make a man who cannot see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3), that is, one who is blind in a much worse way than a physically blind man, and give him the ability to see the author and finisher of our Faith? The question, then, is whether the Gospel is being preached.

The answer to that question has a local and a global answer. First, does my church preach the Gospel and do God's work of preaching and teaching the Gospel as we received it from the apostles? And second, does the Episcopal Church or the Anglican Communion do the same? I can tell you that my church does, and I believe the Anglican Communion does, by large majority, as well.

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Jesus is still alive, so why can't he stop performing the miracles that He did when He was on earth? Or, were the miracles He performed on Earth not verifiable, authentic or truly miraculous incidents?
I think you're relying on a particularly modern idea of what a "miracle" is. The word translated "miracle" is more accurately a "mighty work." God's creation is a mighty work; His work on the Cross is a mighty work. Christ's works of healing were mighty works, and so is His work of sanctification in us. God never ceases His mighty works here in the world. But the gifts that were common in the Apostolic Age, such as the spiritual gift of healing, may or may not have its place in the Church today. For me, it doesn't affect my mission in life, which is to proclaim the Gospel. If God chooses to use gifts of healing to accomplish His Will, so be it. If, as I suspect, He has ceased to use that gift, then that is His prerogative. The healing gifts had a certain purpose, and perhaps that purpose is complete. If your faith is shaky because you don't see the dead raised today, perhaps you should ask God to strengthen your faith instead of asking Him to show you a mighty healing.

I am aware that healings are reported worldwide to this day. Those accounts don't really impress me, simply because I know that there are Benny Hinns all over the world.
Quote:
We all tell our family we love them, but sometimes we screw up. God knows that and still accepts our desire to tell him we love him.
Children make mistakes all the time, they also tell their parents they love them all the time, it doesn't mean they are lying.
This is completely irrelevant in the nature of the case, because it fails to realize that we do not claim we should not tell God we love Him. But to claim that we love Him perfectly would be a lie.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 08:22 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reidwwall
In worship one of the things we do is tell God our heart's desire.
This should be a minor part of worship if included at all. The idea of worship is that we are supposed to be admiring God, not admiring our following of God.

Furthermore, our heart's desire is repeatedly sinful. Why do you think it is that we needed to be saved in the first place?

Quote:
If we only sang songs that would always be completly true in our life, and not asking God to come in and mold is to him, I wouldn't be able to find any songs.
Teleological reasons do not justify ontological problems. In other words, the ends do not justify the means. If you have no songs in your canon that are actually true, then you should either find some or write some. Anyone in here could suggest a great many (especially if you aren't opposed to running songs that were written before 1995).

Quote:
And to argue in response to "You Said" by Reuben Morgan:
I believe that their is power in the words of the saints.
"Life and Death is in the power of the tongue", its Speaking prophetically.
When Jesus left he said he was going and he would send someone GREATER in his stead that we might do greater things (obviously I'm not a cesassionist).
That is clearly not what Psalm 2 is talking about, though.

It's also completely heremeneutically irresponsible to state that Proverbs 18:21 is prophetic. Proverbs is not a book of prophecy, and the passage clearly is not prophetic in any way. Proverbs 18:21 is a moral maxim, not a prophecy. There is no justification whatsoever for taking Proverbs 18:21 to be "speaking prophetically".

Quote:
We all tell our family we love them, but sometimes we screw up. God knows that and still accepts our desire to tell him we love him.
I don't think anyone has an issue per sť with our telling God that we love Him. The issue is that the claims that some of these songs make are far more extravagant.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 10:08 PM   #149
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I will recend my comment about not being able to find any songs.
My wording is poor on the issues at hand, but I still believe that their is nothing wrong with the song. We just disagree. I was not communicationg my thoughts about it clearly. We probably have a theological disagreement as well as a disagreement about what the verse means.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 10:38 PM   #150
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I have a hard time finding faults in songs when I primarily use them to worship God...seeing as how the point of these songs at hand is to lift my voice and my life to God I just...I guess I don't look at the surface level of the lyrics so much that the words bother me to the point of not singing them...They mean more than "I live in the presence of God so Come Now Is The Time To Worship Doesn't suit me" or "I'm not in love with God but I do love Him" Thats just my own 2 cents though...
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