[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

I believe it speaks of Jesus flesh, for if it was the rest of humanity, then we have no profit in the spirit and life He gives. I believe Jesus was making it clear here that it was not His physical flesh that " profitted us" but His spiritual flesh, and that the body we must eat is spiritual, not the physical. " It is the SPIRIT that gives life", those are Jesus words.

Then it sounds to me that you totally belittle the Sacrifice the Jesus went through for us. His physical, bodily death was the only way God decided to open heaven back up to us. It was His body, His flesh that had to SUFFER and DIE for us, not His Word or His Spirit(both of which live on forever). No, only His body had to die for us and open back up heaven for all. For this, Christ's body profits us EVERYTHING.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

Then it sounds to me that you totally belittle the Sacrifice the Jesus went through for us. His physical, bodily death was the only way God decided to open heaven back up to us. It was His body, His flesh that had to SUFFER and DIE for us, not His Word or His Spirit(both of which live on forever). No, only His body had to die for us and open back up heaven for all. For this, Christ's body profits us EVERYTHING.

No, I do not belittle the sacrifice Jesus made for us. Yes, He had to physically die and shed His blood and we are to remember His sacrifice. But in that passage Jesus seems to be explaining to His disciples, that the eating of His body is spiritual, not physical.

[goldenchild]

Okay, if that's the way you see it. That's totally not what happened, clearly from the rest of the whole chapter, but you're entitled to you're opinion. I'm not going to debate here. It's also clear that this is not what He's saying because multiple times in Scripture, Jesus differentiates between "THE flesh" and "MY flesh". THE flesh referring to the rest of humanity, and MY flesh referring to Himself.

And btw, I'm sure you don't mean to, but simply by saying that in this verse that Jesus is not referring to Himself, you implicitly are saying that you agree with the verse and that His flesh profits nothing. You can't have it both ways, you can't say that Jesus profitted us EVERYTHING on the cross at Calvary because of His flesh, and then come around and say that His flesh profitted us NOTHING, just so that you can claim that Jesus isn't in the Eucharist. It's just wrong.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

What constitutes salvation according to the RCC??

Grace of God -- "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8

The faith that gives us this grace is a working faith -- "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." James 2:26

Belief in Jesus -- "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life." John 3:36

By partaking of the Eucharist -- "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life." John 6:54

Obey the Ten Commandments -- "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" …Jesus replied… "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." Matthew 19:16-17

Be steadfast in the faith -- "He who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24:13

Call on the name of Jesus and confess Him as Lord -- "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved… for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" Romans 10:9-13

Doing good works -- "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Romans 2:7

Sorrow and repentance for sins ""Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret." 2 Corinthians 7:9

Be baptised -- "Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." John 3:5

Strive for holiness -- "Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14


I'll add more as I remember where the Scripture is for it.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

Okay, if that's the way you see it. That's totally not what happened, clearly from the rest of the whole chapter, but you're entitled to you're opinion. I'm not going to debate here. It's also clear that this is not what He's saying because multiple times in Scripture, Jesus differentiates between "THE flesh" and "MY flesh". THE flesh referring to the rest of humanity, and MY flesh referring to Himself.

And btw, I'm sure you don't mean to, but simply by saying that in this verse that Jesus is not referring to Himself, you implicitly are saying that you agree with the verse and that His flesh profits nothing. You can't have it both ways, you can't say that Jesus profitted us EVERYTHING on the cross at Calvary because of His flesh, and then come around and say that His flesh profitted us NOTHING, just so that you can claim that Jesus isn't in the Eucharist. It's just wrong.

Ummm, you are the one saying its not Jesus flesh, not me..... please reread post #74. It is His flesh, but read the words just before .... He tells them He is the bread that came down from Heaven, they do not understand... then He asks " what if you see me ascend back to Heaven?" Now, when that happens, they will understand that indeed He is the bread that comes down from Heaven. But His next words make it clear that He is taking of them eating His flesh spiritually, because He states that it is the Spirit that gives life... not the flesh.


And, btw , I am sure you don't mean to, but simply by stating this " flesh" refers to mankind, you are saying mankind does not profit from Jesus death. Therefore, you make the sacrifice of Jesus meaningless.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

Ummm, you are the one saying its not Jesus flesh, not me..... please reread post #74.

In verse 63 it can't refer to Jesus' flesh. I meant to say that if you say that it is Jesus' flesh then you do totally belittle Christ's sacrifice and that is probably one of the saddest things I could ever think of someone doing...

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

It is His flesh, but read the words just before .... He tells them He is the bread that came down from Heaven, they do not understand... then He asks " what if you see me ascend back to Heaven?" Now, when that happens, they will understand that indeed He is the bread that comes down from Heaven. But His next words make it clear that He is taking of them eating His flesh spiritually, because He states that it is the Spirit that gives life... not the flesh.

Nope. You can't take a whole chapter out of context just to satisfy you're one verse. That is what you are doing.
1. The particular eucharistic discourse ENDS in verse 58(see verse 59).

2. In verse 63, this is a CONTRAST between the natural, carnal man(the flesh) with the spiritual or faith-filled man. See 1 Corinthinans 2:14-3:4 “Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone. For ‘who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?’ But we have the mind of Christ. Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ. I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed, you are still not able, even now, for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way? Whenever someone says, ‘I belong to Paul,’ and another, ‘I belong to Apollos," are you not merely human?’”

3. Jesus says “MY Flesh” in talking about the Eucharist. He says “THE flesh” when talking about the carnal man, meaning one who will not believe anything beyond the senses and reason.
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is MY flesh for the life of the world.” John 6:51

“Whoever eats MY flesh and drinks MY blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For MY flesh is true food, and MY blood is true drink. Whoever eats MY flesh and drinks MY blood remains in me and I in him.” John 6:54-56

How do you reconcile the fact that He constantly refers to MY flesh over and over again in the discourse in John 6 and then all of a sudden talks about “THE flesh” in v. 63.

5. Further, if this verse, 63, was an assurance to the disciples that Jesus was only speaking in the spiritual sense and not the physical(as you claim), then some of the disciples would not have left at this point. This is the ONLY time in ALL of the Scripture that disciples leave Him because a teaching of His is too hard to accept. They leave AFTER verse 63, verses 64 and 66 “Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. . . . As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.”

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

And, btw , I am sure you don't mean to, but simply by stating this " flesh" refers to mankind, you are saying mankind does not profit from Jesus death. Therefore, you make the sacrifice of Jesus meaningless.

What does our flesh profit in and of itself? Nothing. We can do NOTHING of ourselves. Our flesh, even from Jesus' death our FLESH doesn't profit anything. In the end, even our flesh dies, regardless of what Christ did. In contrast, it is ONLY our spirit that has life as a result of Christ's suffering. Our flesh profits nothing, neither for someone else or for ourselves, no matter what. It is only the flesh of Christ that profits us anything, obviously because it was His flesh that had to die for us. Our flesh doesn’t profit us anything, because in the end it still dies, while our spirit lives on.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

Nope. You can't take a whole chapter out of context just to satisfy you're one verse. That is what you are doing.


How do you reconcile the fact that He constantly refers to MY flesh over and over again in the discourse in John 6 and then all of a sudden talks about “THE flesh” in v. 63.

.

I'm not taking it out of context, the entire passage is speaking of Jesus flesh... vs 53 says THE flesh and is referring to Jesus. So the use of the word " the " does not mean the subject has changed from Jesus to mankind. Why would it suddenly change from Jesus flesh to mankind ? The entire subject Jesus is speaking of is the eating of His flesh.

[goldenchild]

First of all, as I said, the Eucharistic discourse ended in verse 58. Second, it's only common sense. That's all that's necessary here. Does Christ flesh profit us anything? Of course! His flesh is the reason for our salvation! Does our flesh profit anything, either for us or for others? No. Even with Christ's sacrifice for us, our flesh still dies and rots no matter what Jesus did for us. If He had never suffered as He did, our flesh would still be in the same state it is now, dead at some point. Conversely, with Christ's death(which profitted us EVERYTHING) our spirit gains EVERYTHING with the chance at eternal life, whereas if Christ did not do as He did, then the spirit would have eternal death. Anyone should see how obvious this is.

In the beginning of the chapter(ch. 6) Jesus talks about faith and how important it is. Then He goes in the Eucharist, following the faith discourse emphasizing how important it is to believe this. If Jesus was trying to tell the people that the bread was not His flesh and that His flesh profitted nothing for their nourishment, then there wouldn't occur the FIRST evidence of disciples LEAVING Jesus because a teaching of His is too hard to take. It's just really that simple.

Now, just as at that discourse, we have people leaving the faith of Jesus because this doctrine is just too hard to believe. Sad, but true.

I'm ready for another question.

[goldenchild]

And btw, I editted the post that you quoted. So address that, not something that I obviously saw a need to fix.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

And btw, I editted the post that you quoted. So address that, not something that I obviously saw a need to fix.

Excuse me, but when I read the post you had not edited at that time, so I responded to it as you stated it.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

First of all, as I said, the Eucharistic discourse ended in verse 58. Second, it's only common sense. That's all that's necessary here. Does Christ flesh profit us anything? Of course! His flesh is the reason for our salvation! Does our flesh profit anything, either for us or for others? No. Even with Christ's sacrifice for us, our flesh still dies and rots no matter what Jesus did for us. If He had never suffered as He did, our flesh would still be in the same state it is now, dead at some point. Conversely, with Christ's death(which profitted us EVERYTHING) our spirit gains EVERYTHING with the chance at eternal life, whereas if Christ did not do as He did, then the spirit would have eternal death. Anyone should see how obvious this is.

.

Just because you say it ended in vs 58 does not make you right. In the next few verses Jesus references what He said, so obviously He hadn't changed the subject and the discussion had NOT ended .

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." ............ vs 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life


And you are right, anyone who reads this without a preconceived idea of what it means will see how obvious it is that when Jesus said " it is the SPIRIT that gives life" that He meant spirit, not actual flesh.

You are right though, no further discussion is needed.

[goldenchild]

Okay, next question. I will end the last question by repeating that that particular verse could not possibly refer to Jesus' flesh because His flesh profits everything. It can only be our flesh that profits nothing. That is the Catholic answer to the question. This is a Catholic Q&A. This is the Catholic answer to the question. Let's continue.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

Excuse me, but when I read the post you had not edited at that time, so I responded to it as you stated it.

I know, sorry if it sounded bad. But I did fix it and added a lot of things that needed to be addressed.

[Robbi]

Ok heres one.

Exactly what are Indulgences and does the RCC continue with them?
....ive had a look at the New Advent site and I havnt really made much sense of it. The reason ive asked is that ive been reading up on Luther, and he objected to the "selling of indulgences". Hopefully someone can explain it to me a bit better.....

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by Robbi

Ok heres one.

Exactly what are Indulgences and does the RCC continue with them?
....ive had a look at the New Advent site and I havnt really made much sense of it. The reason ive asked is that ive been reading up on Luther, and he objected to the "selling of indulgences". Hopefully someone can explain it to me a bit better.....

Indulgences, that's a good one. Here is a good definition of just what an indulgence is...

Pope Paul VI said: "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints" (Indulgentiarum Doctrina 1)

Basically, "an indulgence is what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal (lasting only for a short time) penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven."

A sin has both temporal and everlasting punishment. Eternal punishment is mentioned in Daniel 12:2: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Scripture also indicates that temporal penalties are real and go back to the first sin humans committed: "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Gen. 3:16).

When we repent, all of our sin is washed away, Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, let us set things right, says the LORD: Though your sins be like scarlet, they may become white as snow; Though they be crimson red, they may become white as wool." and eternal punishment is washed away as well.

Another example of sin being forgiven, and eternal punishment being erased, but temporal punishment remaining is seen in 2 Samuel 12:13-14 "Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan answered David: "The LORD on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the LORD by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."

God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his child.

Also death. Death is a temporal thing. It is a temporal punishment that entered the world because of sin, Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned"

God uses the Church to forgive sin, John 20:21-23 "(Jesus) said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.'"

Just as He gave the Church the power to bind and loose people from the eternal punishment of sin, He also gave them the power to bind and loose people from temporal punishment(see Matt. 18:18)

One common example of the Church dealing out indulgences is when we pray for those who have died. When we pray for the dead, if they are not in heaven yet, then they are still working off temporal punishment in purgatory for the sins they committed on earth. When we pray for them, we actually remove some of this punishment for them and make their stay in purgatory shorter.

A clear example of this is in the book of 2 Maccabees 12:43, 46 "took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this . . . he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin"

So, it's pretty clear from Scripture that temporal punishment exists and that it can be removed.

The Church most certainly does still believe in indulgences, as it always has. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says "An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins."

One can NOT buy an indulgence. What was going on at the time of Luther was a scandal that had to be dealt with. What actually happened, was the Church would grant indulgences whenever a person gave alms to charity. "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia) and so dealt with the scandal.

There are two kinds of indulgences, partial and plenary. A partial indulgence removes SOME of the temporal punishment from PAST sins. A plenary indulgence removes ALL the temporal punishment of PAST sins. An indulgence can only remove punishment for PAST sins. It doesn't remove punishment for sins that are yet to be committed.


In closing, here is a passage from Catholic.com that shows how to gain an indulgence.

Originally Posted by Catholic.com

To gain any indulgence you must be a Catholic in a state of grace. You must be a Catholic in order to be under the Church’s jurisdiction, and you must be in a state of grace because apart from God’s grace none of your actions are fundamentally pleasing to God (meritorious). You also must have at least the habitual intention of gaining an indulgence by the act performed.

To gain a partial indulgence, you must perform with a contrite heart the act to which the indulgence is attached.

To gain a plenary indulgence you must perform the act with a contrite heart, plus you must go to confession (one confession may suffice for several plenary indulgences), receive Holy Communion, and pray for the pope’s intentions. (An Our Father and a Hail Mary said for the pope’s intentions are sufficient, although you are free to substitute other prayers of your own choice.) The final condition is that you must be free from all attachment to sin, including venial sin.

If you attempt to receive a plenary indulgence, but are unable to meet the last condition, a partial indulgence is received instead.

Below are indulgences listed in the Handbook of Indulgences (New York: Catholic Book Publishing, 1991). Note that there is an indulgence for Bible reading. So, rather than discouraging Bible reading, the Catholic Church promotes it by giving indulgences for it! (This was the case long before Vatican II.)

• An act of spiritual communion, expressed in any devout formula whatsoever, is endowed with a partial indulgence.

• A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful who devoutly spend time in mental prayer.

• A plenary indulgence is granted when the rosary is recited in a church or oratory or when it is recited in a family, a religious community, or a pious association. A partial indulgence is granted for its recitation in all other circumstances.

• A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful who read sacred Scripture with the veneration due God’s word and as a form of spiritual reading. The indulgence will be a plenary one when such reading is done for at least one-half hour [provided the other conditions are met].

• A partial indulgence is granted to the Christian faithful who devoutly sign themselves with the cross while saying the customary formula: "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

In summary, the practice of indulgences neither takes away nor adds to the work of Christ. It is his work, through his body the Church, raising up children in his own likeness. "The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God’s grace is not alone. ‘The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person’" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1474 [Indulgentarium Doctrina 5]).