[goldenchild]

Okay, no problem. If you wouldn't mind giving some of the passages that you believe imply needing both I would appreciate it. Then I could take a look at them.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Questions about the bread used for communion in the RCC ( yes, this question comes from my reading of the young girl who had her first communion overturned ): What is it made of?? and Why does it matter as long as it is unleavened?? I honestly had no idea it was any set thing until that article came out in the news, but I didn't read enough or it didn't say exactly what the bread was to be made from.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

Okay, no problem. If you wouldn't mind giving some of the passages that you believe imply needing both I would appreciate it. Then I could take a look at them.

1 Cor 10 15 I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. 16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

Hebrews 9:11-14, 22 11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? ( rabbit trail I will only mention briefly....the sacrifices the people made before Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice were new sacrifices each time, they were not a continuation of one sacrifice which leads to another question that I don't wish to address at this time) 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission

John 6:53-56 as already mentioned 53 Then Jesus said unto them Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him

The body and blood serve two separate purposes and both are necessary. Eating the body joins us into the body of Christ, drinking the blood is necessary for remission of sin. One without the other is not good enough. I know of nowhere in scripture where either the body or the blood of Christ are spoken of as doing both things or of one element taking on the purpose of the other as well as its own purpose.

This is just on a few minutes as I have had company but I wanted to give a bit now.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

Questions about the bread used for communion in the RCC ( yes, this question comes from my reading of the young girl who had her first communion overturned ): What is it made of?? and Why does it matter as long as it is unleavened?? I honestly had no idea it was any set thing until that article came out in the news, but I didn't read enough or it didn't say exactly what the bread was to be made from.

The host is supposed to be made of unleavened wheat flour without any leavening whatsoever. We are commanded to "do this in memory of me" and Christ used unleavened bread as it was the Passover and unleavened bread was used at Passover. Jesus used unleavened wheaten bread to consecrate and turn into His body and blood, so do we follow His command to "do this in memory" by following as closely as possible. I'll get more.

[goldenchild]

I'll get to the Scripture soon, hopefully. My cpu has a bug and we may have to reformat. So, it could be awhile if that needs to be done. But I'll try and look into this beforehand.

[moegreen26]

I have a new question Goldenchild.

This may seem a bit naive and unscholarly, but please bear with me, I'm a simple Catholic and I don't know everything.

Why, in the Post Your Beliefs thread up in Theology, is Catholicism commonly listed as outside the pale of orthodoxy?

Take your time in answering me, I'm not going anywhere. And I think you're doing a great job in this thread and elsewhere.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

The host is supposed to be made of unleavened wheat flour without any leavening whatsoever. We are commanded to "do this in memory of me" and Christ used unleavened bread as it was the Passover and unleavened bread was used at Passover. Jesus used unleavened wheaten bread to consecrate and turn into His body and blood, so do we follow His command to "do this in memory" by following as closely as possible. I'll get more.

Thanks, I know you are busy , as am I, and I really appreciate how you take the time to respond. Would you prefer me to respond back in this thread with any further questions I have after you respond , or would you prefer I do it elsewhere? Some questions that stem from your answers I need to give background as to why I am asking a further question.

I did some reading, briefly, and I found this site http://bibleresearch.org/observancebook5/b5w51.html. I have barely skimmed it ( and I have not had time to research its accuracy, so I won't claim its right, just that I came across it and it was interesting ), but it seems to be saying that the Passover feast came during the barley harvest, not the wheat harvest... that wheat was not harvested until Pentecost. This quote is under the bold heading " THE GRAIN HARVEST AND THE LIFT OFFERING "The grain harvest of Israel began with the cutting of barley for the Lift Offering during the Feast of Unleavened Bread and ended with the presentation of two leavened loaves of bread out of the wheat harvest, seven weeks later, on the Day of Pentecost." Then, from under the bold heading " THE WHEAT HARVEST" .."Just as the first grain of the barley harvest was prophetic and symbolic of Jesus Christ as the first born of God, the first grain of the wheat harvest was prophetic and symbolic of all those who would obtain salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ."

All the following will be from Exodus 12 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. ( I looked in several commentaries and they all said this was March, not Sept as the Jews had previously considered the " beginning of months".) ... 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it........14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. 15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread;..... 17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.


I have a LOT more researching to do on this, this is just what I found in a quick search I did on the Passover and the unleavened bread. IF that site is accurate, it appears that the bread would have had to be made of barley, not wheat...but like I said, I have barely even skimmed the article and have no opinion at this time as to whether it is accurate or not. I never even thought about what the bread was made of until I read the article about that young girl.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

I'll get to the Scripture soon, hopefully. My cpu has a bug and we may have to reformat. So, it could be awhile if that needs to be done. But I'll try and look into this beforehand.

NP, it may take me some time to post more as I have way too many things on my plate at the moment.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by moegreen26

I have a new question Goldenchild.

This may seem a bit naive and unscholarly, but please bear with me, I'm a simple Catholic and I don't know everything.

Why, in the Post Your Beliefs thread up in Theology, is Catholicism commonly listed as outside the pale of orthodoxy?

Take your time in answering me, I'm not going anywhere. And I think you're doing a great job in this thread and elsewhere.

Ya know what, I'm with you on this one. I'm assuming it's because many Protestant-Christians don't believe that Catholicism is a Christian religion. This is something that is completely false, but there doesn't seem to be much doing in changing peoples opinions on this. But I think when they say this, they say that Catholicism is not a Christian religion. In reality it is THE Christian religion. Don't let it sway you.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

1 Cor 10 15 I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. 16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

Hebrews 9:11-14, 22 11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? ( rabbit trail I will only mention briefly....the sacrifices the people made before Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice were new sacrifices each time, they were not a continuation of one sacrifice which leads to another question that I don't wish to address at this time) 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission

John 6:53-56 as already mentioned 53 Then Jesus said unto them Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him

The body and blood serve two separate purposes and both are necessary. Eating the body joins us into the body of Christ, drinking the blood is necessary for remission of sin. One without the other is not good enough. I know of nowhere in scripture where either the body or the blood of Christ are spoken of as doing both things or of one element taking on the purpose of the other as well as its own purpose.

This is just on a few minutes as I have had company but I wanted to give a bit now.

All of this talks about the body and blood and I completely agree with what it says. It does not, however, negate the body and blood both being contained in both the consecrated cup and consecrated host. As 1 Cor. showed both the body and the blood is contained in each the host and the cup. So all the effects is accomplished.

1 Cor 11:26-29
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread OR drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy way will be guilty of sin against the body AND blood of the Lord.
28 So a man should examine himself; in this way he should eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For whoever eats AND drinks without recognizing the BODY, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

verse 27: when we eat unworthily we sin aginst the body AND blood
when we drink unworthily we sin against the body AND blood

verse 29: when we EAT we must recognize the body
when we DRINK we must recognize the body.

It seems that the body and the blood, indeed the whole of Christ, is contained in either the cup or bread.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

Thanks, I know you are busy , as am I, and I really appreciate how you take the time to respond.

I'm working on this one. I honestly haven't researched it that much so it may take a small bit. Basically what you are questioning is the Catholic practice of using just unleavened wheat bread? You think we should use barley instead, if we claim to follow as closely as possible? I'll check this out.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

I'm working on this one. I honestly haven't researched it that much so it may take a small bit. Basically what you are questioning is the Catholic practice of using just unleavened wheat bread? You think we should use barley instead, if we claim to follow as closely as possible? I'll check this out.

Its just in researching when the feasts occured, Passover was during the barley harvest and the wheat harvest didn't come in until Pentecost, 50 days later. It just seems that the grain currently being harvested would be what the people would have made their bread from. I just learned this myself from reading about the feasts on several web sites, all of which said that the barley came in first during Passover, and then wheat later. I'm finding this very interesting, the feasts are something I have read several times, but never really researched.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

All of this talks about the body and blood and I completely agree with what it says. It does not, however, negate the body and blood both being contained in both the consecrated cup and consecrated host. As 1 Cor. showed both the body and the blood is contained in each the host and the cup. So all the effects is accomplished.

1 Cor 11:26-29
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread OR drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy way will be guilty of sin against the body AND blood of the Lord.
28 So a man should examine himself; in this way he should eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For whoever eats AND drinks without recognizing the BODY, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

verse 27: when we eat unworthily we sin aginst the body AND blood
when we drink unworthily we sin against the body AND blood

verse 29: when we EAT we must recognize the body
when we DRINK we must recognize the body.

It seems that the body and the blood, indeed the whole of Christ, is contained in either the cup or bread.

Well, vs 26, 28 and 29 all say a man is to both eat AND drink. Vs 26 says you must do both to proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. Vs 29 says you must do both without recognizing the body to bring judgement, so that doesn't seem to support that each element individually contains the " whole" of Christ since the word AND is used, not OR.

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

Ya know what, I'm with you on this one. I'm assuming it's because many Protestant-Christians don't believe that Catholicism is a Christian religion. This is something that is completely false, but there doesn't seem to be much doing in changing peoples opinions on this. But I think when they say this, they say that Catholicism is not a Christian religion. In reality it is THE Christian religion. Don't let it sway you.

The reason many people say that Roman Catholicism is not a Christian church is because you teach a different Gospel than the one revealed in the Scriptures. St. Paul tells us that if anyone teaches a Gospel different from the one he preached, for that person/group to be accursed - anathema.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

Well, vs 26, 28 and 29 all say a man is to both eat AND drink. Vs 26 says you must do both to proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. Vs 29 says you must do both without recognizing the body to bring judgement, so that doesn't seem to support that each element individually contains the " whole" of Christ since the word AND is used, not OR.

I don't see where you come up with this. It doesn't say that we must eat of both, it just says that WHEN we do eat of either and both, the body and blood is contained in each. It doesn't say we must eat of both. None of those verses do.