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Adam and Eve and......"Free Will"

Adam and Eve and......"Free Will"

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Old 09-13-2004, 09:47 PM   #1
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Adam and Eve and......"Free Will"
Reformed folks (and even non-Reformed) could you respond to this statement please?

Quote:
The very first instance of biblical use of Free will, was in the Garden of Eden, and they had all the free will to reject God. He gave it to them, because he loves them, and wants them to choose Him.

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Old 09-13-2004, 10:08 PM   #2
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I'm new to the reformed way of thinking, but I imagine they would say God predestined Adam and Eve's rejection of Him for His greater glory.

Or is that even what you are asking?
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Old 09-13-2004, 11:00 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshaber
I'm new to the reformed way of thinking, but I imagine they would say God predestined Adam and Eve's rejection of Him for His greater glory.

Or is that even what you are asking?
You mean that God made beings without sinful natures sin?
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Old 09-13-2004, 11:15 PM   #4
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You mean that God made beings without sinful natures sin?
I mean that God chose (predestined) to allow the naturally sinful nature of man to reject Him.

On second thought, were they naturally sinful before the fall? I'll bow out to a more experienced person on this one.
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Old 09-13-2004, 11:26 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshaber
I mean that God chose (predestined) to allow the naturally sinful nature of man to reject Him.

On second thought, were they naturally sinful before the fall? I'll bow out to a more experienced person on this one.
I'm glad you caught my meaning. They were not naturally sinful. They had not fallen. There was no reason for them to sin in a predestination based world. Free will of course provides a door for them to choose sin despite not having a sin nature.
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Old 09-13-2004, 11:44 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightknight
They were not naturally sinful. They had not fallen. There was no reason for them to sin in a predestination based world. Free will of course provides a door for them to choose sin despite not having a sin nature.
I don't see how this works. If Adam and Eve had no sin nature, then they would not have wanted to do anything except what God had commanded them to do. But, they did sin... which tells me that they did have a sin nature.
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:07 AM   #7
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So God created something with a sinful nature?
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:13 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverNitrate
I don't see how this works. If Adam and Eve had no sin nature, then they would not have wanted to do anything except what God had commanded them to do. But, they did sin... which tells me that they did have a sin nature.
Yeah, Gavin. If your nature allows you to willingly choose sin (which is what both Arminians and Calvinists believe ["non-Calvinist" is too broad for me to comment on]) then what kind of nature is it?
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:14 AM   #9
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So God created something with a sinful nature?
Ever hear of the devil?
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:32 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by slap_j
Ever hear of the devil?
Even he wasn't origionally sinful Josh , remember, he was lucifer first, satan second.
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverNitrate
I don't see how this works. If Adam and Eve had no sin nature, then they would not have wanted to do anything except what God had commanded them to do. But, they did sin... which tells me that they did have a sin nature.
They must have been able to be presented with a sin by Satan, and then to be able to choose that sin, despite it being within their nature. We did not have a sin nature before they sinned. You know that as well as I. The only other explanation would to say God forced them to sin.
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:40 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by ICTHUS
Reformed folks (and even non-Reformed) could you respond to this statement please?
The statement's based on an assumption. It's question-begging. The statement relies on its conclustion to prove itself.

Concerning Adam and Eve and Satan, it's perfectly possible that God created them good, yet at the same time, they desired such things that fulfilled the ordained plan of God.
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverNitrate
I don't see how this works. If Adam and Eve had no sin nature, then they would not have wanted to do anything except what God had commanded them to do. But, they did sin... which tells me that they did have a sin nature.
How could Adam and Eve have direct fellowship with God if they had a sin nature? Sin is what separates us from God. I believe that Adam and Eve were perfect.
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:43 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by FreindO'God
How could Adam and Eve have direct fellowship with God if they had a sin nature? Sin is what separates us from God. I believe that Adam and Eve were perfect.
Where does the Bible ever say that Adam and Eve were created with the same level of perfection as God? Doesn't being able to sin presuppose that one isn't perfect? A truly perfect being would be incapable of wrong-doing (like God).
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison
Where does the Bible ever say that Adam and Eve were created with the same level of perfection as God? Doesn't being able to sin presuppose that one isn't perfect? A truly perfect being would be incapable of wrong-doing (like God).
No, that arguement is null. God is incapable of doing wrong because He makes the rules. However, they were not bound to sin. It was not within their nature to sin. We are born with a sin nature, bound to sin, because of what they did. But they did not start off like that.
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