Adam and Eve and......"Free Will"

joshaber · 09-14-2004, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight

However, without a sin nature, how would they desire sin? It would "naturally" be against their "nature" to desire sin.

But if you follow that line of thought, you end up saying that Adam and Eve could not sin at all since that would be against their nature. Obviously, though, they did sin.

It was not that they desired to sin, but that they desired the power that Satan told them the fruit would give them.

**slap_j** · 09-14-2004, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight

However, without a sin nature, how would they desire sin?

The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. - Genesis 3:4-6

The woman chose to believe the serpent over the Lord because it's advice was more appealing to her. This means that although they weren't fallen, they had the capacity to sin.

InGodsWill · 09-14-2004, 12:08 PM

Ummm... did anyone read my post? They did not have a fallen nature yet. They simply had a nature in which they could choose to sin or choose not to sin. It is as simple as that. What you all are talking about doesn't even apply.

They were not under the curse of sin just as we (as regenerate) are no longer under the curse of sin and we can choose to sin or not.

**slap_j** · 09-14-2004, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InGodsWill

What you all are talking about doesn't even apply.

Eh? What is the problem with my post?

InGodsWill · 09-14-2004, 12:22 PM

sorry, nothing wrong with your post=) I was refering to the 2 post above yours that seemed to totally ignore my answer, but that is alright too=) Anyway, you post was great slap_j

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slap_j

The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. - Genesis 3:4-6

The woman chose to believe the serpent over the Lord because it's advice was more appealing to her. This means that although they weren't fallen, they had the capacity to sin.

Yes, but does that mean she was depraved?

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshaber

But if you follow that line of thought, you end up saying that Adam and Eve could not sin at all since that would be against their nature. Obviously, though, they did sin.

It was not that they desired to sin, but that they desired the power that Satan told them the fruit would give them.

No no, that isn't my final point. You'll have to forgive me as I'm more leading the conversation rather than debating. Perhaps I should just debate and not lead. I just like the socratic method soooo much. But this isn't the time or place for it I suppose.

InGodsWill · 09-14-2004, 12:39 PM

No, Eve was NOT depraved. She had not fallen yet either. God did not create them with a sinful nature. God created them in a state of freedom. A freedom to choose. I feel like a broken record that noone is hearing.

goldenchild · 09-14-2004, 12:41 PM

Always a place and time for the socratic method

I love it too, haven't mastered it like I'd want to though.

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InGodsWill

No, Eve was NOT depraved. She had not fallen yet either. God did not create them with a sinful nature. God created them in a state of freedom. A freedom to choose. I feel like a broken record that noone is hearing.

I'm just making sure. So they had complete free will in this situation, right?

InGodsWill · 09-14-2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight

I'm just making sure. So they had complete free will in this situation, right?

Just as free as any animal in the garden, to act and do whatever is desired. But not so much freedom that they are outside of the control of God.

Moraly, they could choose to sin, or not to sin.

**slap_j** · 09-14-2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Yes, but does that mean she was depraved?

Adam and Eve were not fallen yet they clearly had the capacity to sin. You already agreed that they chose to disobey God...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin

They chose to serve a different master in those two actions.

...and that they didn't have a "sin nature" (which I suppose means that they weren't fallen).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin

without a sin nature, how would they desire sin?

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InGodsWill

Just as free as any animal in the garden, to act and do whatever is desired. But not so much freedom that they are outside of the control of God.

Moraly, they could choose to sin, or not to sin.

Ok, so you're saying yes, right?

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slap_j

Adam and Eve were not fallen yet they clearly had the capacity to sin. You already agreed that they chose to disobey God...

...and that they didn't have a "sin nature" (which I suppose means that they weren't fallen).

I'm just making it clear that they even made a choice that was against their nature. It was against what they should naturally have wanted.

WorshipJesus · 09-14-2004, 04:23 PM

if God created something with a sin nature could He fellowship with it directly?