Adam and Eve and......"Free Will"

ChrisHarbison · 09-14-2004, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight

hms... interesting statement. I would like to disagree here. The desire to sin comes from one's sin nature. So I don't see how one can be without a sin nature and "want" to sin.

Yeah, that's what I said.

Without a sin-nature, one will not want to sin.

ChrisHarbison · 09-14-2004, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreindO'God

eve offered adam the fruit and adam freely ate.

So?

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

Yeah, that's what I said.

Without a sin-nature, one will not want to sin.

oooh, lol, I must have misread you!

ok, sorry. We agree on that part.

WorshipJesus · 09-14-2004, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slap_j

Satan is just a name. Prove he wasn't always sinful.

can satan repent of his sin?

this is off topic. we're talking about adam and eve. start a thread about satan.

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slap_j

Satan is just a name. Prove he wasn't always sinful.

The fact that God put him in charge of 1/3 of the angels in heaven. The very fact that he was even an angel in heaven at one point too. Prove to me that he was always in sin.

**slap_j** · 09-14-2004, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreindO'God

can satan repent of his sin?

No

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreindO'God

can satan repent of his sin?

this is off topic. we're talking about adam and eve. start a thread about satan.

Even if he could, he isn't human so it wouldn't matter. Only humans have the right.

(since that's off topic, pm me with any other questions in regards to that)

**slap_j** · 09-14-2004, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight

The fact that God put him in charge of 1/3 of the angels in heaven. The very fact that he was even an angel in heaven at one point too.

Sooooooooo?

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Prove to me that he was always in sin.

I never claimed that, kemosabe.

**Becky** · 09-14-2004, 01:35 AM

alright kids, stay on topic or else

Quote:

hms... interesting statement. I would like to disagree here. The desire to sin comes from one's sin nature. So I don't see how one can be without a sin nature and "want" to sin.

Gavin, I'm interested in seeing you post more indepth on this

WorshipJesus · 09-14-2004, 01:40 AM

God created adam and eve in His image. He created them with mental, moral, and social likeness. they were created for fellowship.

remember that God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Becky

Gavin, I'm interested in seeing you post more indepth on this

Well, what is natural to us? Whatever is within our nature is what is natural. So, someone without a sin nature would find it unatural to sin. This does not mean that they cannot (obviously, *glares at Adam and Eve*) sin. Just that it would go against the grain. I think that they really thought they were doing what was right. They, for some stupid reason, believed Satan over God and thought that Satan's way was better. So in sinning, they technically weren't going against their nature. Which sounds odd, but true. They didn't think they were sinning. But the moment they did it, they knew they had obeyed the wrong master.

I believe that this is a proof for free will. As they had to choose one of two different statements. 1. the fruit was fine, 2. the fruit was bad.

SilverNitrate · 09-14-2004, 09:50 AM

I'm still confused...
I don't see how one could sin without a sinful nature. Although Jesus was human (and God) He was not born with a sinful nature... he never sinned. Adam did sin... therefore he Adam had a sinful nature. If Adam did not have a sinful nature, then he never would've sinned.

And in case anyone says that the reason Jesus didn't sin is because He is God, I've already got a response for that:
If Jesus didn't sin due to the fact that He is God, then we couldn't say that Jesus was actually tempted in the ways we are tempted.

**slap_j** · 09-14-2004, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight

They, for some stupid reason, believed Satan over God and thought that Satan's way was better.

Because that sin aligned with their own desire.

Quote:

I believe that this is a proof for free will. As they had to choose one of two different statements. 1. the fruit was fine, 2. the fruit was bad.

Calvinists believe in free will (we are free to choose according to our desires) as well. Just not total autonomy apart from God.

InGodsWill · 09-14-2004, 10:19 AM

A: They had free will, free choice, or whatever you want to call it. I am a calvinist. I will define free will as such: They ability to choose what you desire. They were just as free as any animal in the garden and they did whatever they pleased. They were created good, and without sin. Their nature, however, was not such that they were unable sin. Rather they had the ability to sin, and the ability not to sin.

I will draw a nice graph that may help some people out:
pre-fall man: Able to sin, Able not to sin.
post-fall man: Able to sin, Unable to not sin
reborn man: Able to sin, Able not to sin.
glorified man: Able to not sin, Unable to sin

So Adam and Eve were created good. They were also free to sin if they so choose. The capability for sin does not make someone bad or evil.

And lastly, God ordained the fall and it was in accordence with the wills of Adam and Eve, not against their wills.

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slap_j

Because that sin aligned with their own desire.

However, without a sin nature, how would they desire sin? It would "naturally" be against their "nature" to desire sin.