Adam and Eve and......"Free Will"

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreindO'God

How could Adam and Eve have direct fellowship with God if they had a sin nature? Sin is what separates us from God. I believe that Adam and Eve were perfect.

They were perfect as far as not having a sin nature.

WorshipJesus · 09-14-2004, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight

The only other explanation would to say God forced them to sin.

God gave them a choice. Satan didn't present them with a sin. Satan decieved Eve, he got her to believe that God was lying to her.

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreindO'God

God gave them a choice. Satan didn't present them with a sin. Satan decieved Eve, he got her to believe that God was lying to her.

The problem there was that foolish Eve added onto what God had told them. He said that they could not eat of the tree. She told Satan that God said they couldn't even touch it. So Satan played on that. Because she was incorrect.

Either way, a choice is necessary.

ChrisHarbison · 09-14-2004, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin

No, that arguement is null. God is incapable of doing wrong because He makes the rules. However, they were not bound to sin. It was not within their nature to sin. We are born with a sin nature, bound to sin, because of what they did. But they did not start off like that.

Well said, I agree completely. However, what Adam and Eve did have that we have also is the desire for greatness. God created all mankind in His image. Part of that involves the desire to be the great one - the one that is worshipped and adored. This is where Satan, Adam and Eve all screwed up. They had a perfectly good desire to be what God created them to be, but then that desire was perverted and became sinful when they decided that they were more important than God. That's the key difference. That's what makes the creation not quite perfect and God completely perfect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriendO'God

God gave them a choice. Satan didn't present them with a sin. Satan decieved Eve, he got her to believe that God was lying to her.

Satan did present them with a sin. Satan presented them with both the opportunity to disobey God and the opportunity to be more than what they were created to be.

WorshipJesus · 09-14-2004, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

Where does the Bible ever say that Adam and Eve were created with the same level of perfection as God? Doesn't being able to sin presuppose that one isn't perfect? A truly perfect being would be incapable of wrong-doing (like God).

nowhere did i say that adam and eve were like God. nowhere in the Bible does it say that adam and eve were like God. they were perfect as far as not having a sin nature, just like lightnight said. they were created in God's image.

ChrisHarbison · 09-14-2004, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreindO'God

nowhere did i say that adam and eve were like God. nowhere in the Bible does it say that adam and eve were like God. they were perfect as far as not having a sin nature, just like lightnight said. they were created in God's image.

Yes, and the argument is that without a sin nature, it's impossible to desire sin.

**slap_j** · 09-14-2004, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Even he wasn't origionally sinful Josh

, remember, he was lucifer first, satan second.

A rose by any other name is just as sweet.

IOW

So?

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

Well said, I agree completely. However, what Adam and Eve did have that we have also is the desire for greatness. God created all mankind in His image. Part of that involves the desire to be the great one - the one that is worshipped and adored. This is where Satan, Adam and Eve all screwed up. They had a perfectly good desire to be what God created them to be, but then that desire was perverted and became sinful when they decided that they were more important than God. That's the key difference. That's what makes the creation not quite perfect and God completely perfect.

Ah, so pride is again our downfall. I say again, but what I mean is that it was also lucifer's fall. I have a theory that all sin can be linked back to pride. That even the smallest of sins is actually a pride issue. However, despite having that desire, (which as you said, is still perfect because it is a good godly desire when in the correct proportions), what they sinned in was first believing another being over God, and then disobeying His commandment. They chose to serve a different master in those two actions.

Quote:

Satan did present them with a sin. Satan presented them with both the opportunity to disobey God and the opportunity to be more than what they were created to be.

Yes, well said.

WorshipJesus · 09-14-2004, 01:01 AM

Why did eve have to be talked into sin and adam didn't?

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slap_j

A rose by any other name is just as sweet.

IOW

So?

He wasn't always Satan. He wasn't always sinful.

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreindO'God

Why did eve have to be talked into sin and adam didn't?

Adam was, just by Eve instead of Satan.

ChrisHarbison · 09-14-2004, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin

Ah, so pride is again our downfall. I say again, but what I mean is that it was also lucifer's fall. I have a theory that all sin can be linked back to pride. That even the smallest of sins is actually a pride issue. However, despite having that desire, (which as you said, is still perfect because it is a good godly desire when in the correct proportions), what they sinned in was first believing another being over God, and then disobeying His commandment. They chose to serve a different master in those two actions.

Can it be? Gavin I do believe that you made a statement that I agree with in its entirety concerning freewill. BRB...gonna go check the temperature of the ground.

Anyways, I'm off to bed...I told my fiance I was going to bed like an hour ago. Now I've made a liar of myself and I'm really tired.

Talk to you guys later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin

what they sinned in was first believing another being over God

That being, in all 3 cases, happened to be themselves.

Lightknight · 09-14-2004, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

Yes, and the argument is that without a sin nature, it's impossible to desire sin.

hms... interesting statement. I would like to disagree here. The desire to sin comes from one's sin nature. So I don't see how one can be without a sin nature and "want" to sin.