[OutThere]

I just joined this place today, so forgive me if I've put this in the wrong place. You there nigh-- I mean Lightknight?

[Lightknight]

Yep, someone, please move this to the restricted participation debate forum.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Yep, someone, please move this to the restricted participation debate forum.

Done. Who's debating which side?

*is ashamed he doesn't know Gavin's stance on this issue*

In His love,
Nate

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Nate

Done. Who's debating which side?

*is ashamed he doesn't know Gavin's stance on this issue*

In His love,
Nate

Thanks Nate, remember though, I'm non-Calvinist so I'm not on the Calvinist side. Of course, my debate opponent isn't either....

I'm debating against eternal security in the Calvinist sense while our new friend here is debating in favor of eternal security from the perspective of a non-calvinist.

[OutThere]

Mark 4:15-20
John 3:16, 10:27-29
Rom. 8:38-39
1 Cor. 6:19-20
2 Cor. 5:17
Eph. 1:13-14, 4:30, 5:1-18
Php. 1:6
1 Timothy 4:1-3
Heb. 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:20-21
1 John 2:19

Eternal security is the term used to describe the concept of salvation that cannot be lost. There are many Christians who don’t believe in eternal security (ES), and many who do. But before the question of which view the Bible teaches can be answered, we must first find out what happens when a person is saved.

Salvation is purely a gift--- no part of it can be earned. And at the moment a person is saved, he becomes a new being. So the only part a person has in the salvation process is to accept by faith Jesus as Savior, and believe that God raised him from the dead. After that happens, we belong to God and not to ourselves. The old nature died and was replaced by a new one.

There are two primary passages used to support the non-ES view: Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 Peter 2:20-21. These passages raise the following questions:

The terms “once enlightened”, “tasted the heavenly gift”, “partakers of the Holy Spirit”, “escaped through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”, and “have known the way of righteousness” seem to describe a believer. What is missing here that would describe a born-again Christian? Can you “fall away” from a place you’ve never been? Can you be “renewed again to repentance” or “crucify the Son of God again” if you’ve never repented or accepted his sacrifice? Also, the people described here are “impossible” to be brought back to repentance. Are there some people who can’t be saved? (Some say that Judas, who obviously wasn’t saved, “partook of the Holy Spirit”, but the Holy Spirit wasn’t given until Pentecost. Yes, the Holy Spirit reaches out to the unsaved, but no unbeliever is ever described as having “partaken” of the Holy Spirit.)


References used to support ES include John 6:53-54, 10:27-29, Romans 8:38-39, Philippians 1:6, and 1 John 2:19. Along with the other references, these passages show that salvation is eternal. The word “eternal” is meaningless if salvation can be gained and lost. Regarding Hebrews 6:4-6, the ES view can also ask some questions: Can a dead person change his mind? Will Jesus give away one who is in his hand? Can someone take anything that belongs to God? Can one who is “born again” become unborn?


Therefore, this passage is a hypothetical discussion of what would happen to a believer if it were possible to lose one’s salvation. It says “IF they fall away”, not “WHEN they fall away”. In other words, if a person lost his salvation it would be impossible for him to be saved again. And “falling away” has nothing to do with salvation, as indicated in verse 9. Heb. 6:4-6 shows why we must not “lay again the foundation” (v.1). Likewise, 2 Peter 2:1-22 is a detailed description of false teachers (apostates). It describes those who come as close to Christ as possible but never make him their Lord and Savior, then knowingly and deliberately try to subvert the true Gospel and turn people away from it.

Since at the moment of salvation we become “new creations” who died with Christ and were re-born, we are no longer capable of re-acquiring our old dead nature. Therefore it is impossible to lose our salvation. Another thing that happens at the moment of salvation is that we are “sealed with the Holy Spirit” (Eph 1:13). And no one but God can break that seal.


How can we tell the difference between one who is unsaved and one who is saved but backslidden? Since only God can judge the heart, we must rely on outward behavior. Although we may not be able to always identify false Christians, we can test our own salvation by studying the New Testament, especially the books of 1 John and James.

Rebuttals to common arguments against eternal security

Point 1: Although no one else can take away our salvation, we ourselves can choose to throw it away.

Counter: In John 10:28-29 is the phrase “no one can snatch them out of [God’s] hand”. This is taken to mean “no one else”, but I take it to mean just what it says. In other words, we ourselves are included in the “no one” group. So it all depends on the meaning of “no one”. I can find no contextual justification for interpreting it as “no one else”.

Point 2: All Christians of all time are told that they must “endure” to be saved.


Counter: Matthew 10:22 is used to support this claim, but it is taken out of context. Jesus had just given instructions to The Twelve about going into the surrounding towns in

Israel. These were specific instructions to a specific group of people for a specific situation. Jesus then broadens his instructions to include Gentiles, and in verse 23 he says that they will not finish going through the towns of Israel “until the Son of Man comes”, yet he has not returned. Obviously there’s more here than meets the casual reading!







Prophetically speaking, there is no gap seen in the OT between the 69^th and 70^th weeks of Daniel’s vision, yet in our hindsight we know that the prophetic timetable for Israel was interrupted. This interruption is the current Church Age, the “times of the Gentiles” so to speak. Israel’s rejection of her Messiah turned God’s exclusive relationship with Israel to the Gentiles for an allotted time, after which the prophecies will continue to completion. It is only then, in the Tribulation (the “time of Jacob’s trouble”), that the Jewish evangelists will complete their journey to all the towns of Israel (see Revelation and the 144,000).









It is at that time, during the Tribulation, that believers will have to “endure”. This will no longer be “the age of grace” where each believer is personally indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Salvation during that time will be the way it was before Jesus came the first time, by worshiping the one true God of Israel. So this command to “endure” is for believers without the Holy Spirit.



Point 3: Hebrews 6 means we can willfully throw away our salvation, but only once.











Counter: Here again the context needs to be carefully considered. The chapter begins with an exhortation for believers to go beyond the basics and move on to meatier subjects. Verses 4-6 are given as the reason: that we must not continually dwell on what is impossible. This scenario of a believer getting lost is hypothetical, i.e., “Even if you could lose your salvation it would be impossible to regain it, but we know that’s not a concern so let’s move ahead now” (see esp. verse 9).











Point 4: The letters to the churches of Revelation show the possibility of losing one’s salvation.







Counter: Yes, these letters were written to groups of church-age believers, but remember that not everyone in a group is a true believer. In these letters Jesus distinguishes between the faithful and the unrepentant, giving encouragement to the one and warning to the other. But even if the warnings apply to true believers, there is no unmistakable statement about the possibility of being lost. In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul speaks of the figurative burning of a believer’s works, and states that the believer who shirked his duties as a Christian will “suffer loss, [and] he himself will be saved, but only as through fire”.











Point 5: The parable in Matthew 18 about the forgiven servant who refused to forgive others proves that a saved person can be lost.











Counter: This parable is not about salvation but forgiveness and judgment. God would never declare a person saved, guaranteeing their place in heaven (2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5, Eph. 1:14), then violate his own nature by going back on his promise. Salvation or the lack thereof is not determined at either the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Great White Throne Judgment; these are for the purpose of judging works and determining either reward or loss. Jesus said that the standard used in these judgments would be according to the measure we used for others (Matthew 7:2). Clearly then, the parable of chapter 18 illustrates this application of judgment as it applies to forgiveness, not the loss of salvation.











Point 6: 1 Cor. 10 shows Israelite “believers” in the wilderness being lost, so it must be possible for Christians.











Counter: Again, an “apples to oranges” comparison that ignores the difference between the guaranteed salvation of the Age of Grace and the conditional salvation of other ages, and between corporate and individual judgment. The ancient Israelites did not have the Holy Spirit within them personally, and although God has repeatedly punished his chosen people , he has never and will never abandon them completely.







edit: I disabled smilies in this post to make things look right. -Mike



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[Lightknight]

Here, maybe me actually putting what I said here will help. As it is confusing to see what you're talking about if you're an onlooker reading this thread.

ETERNAL SECURITY
Eternal Security (perseverance of saints or preseverance of saints) does exist. No no, don't be surprised. This isn't in the calvinistic sense of the word. I believe that there is no force in Heaven or Hell or on Earth that can strip your salvation from God. Nothing can pluck you or tear you from God's hand and He will certainly not cast you aside. This is all biblical.

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

However, this does not account for someone that choses to step away from salvation. This would have to be someone who completely denies repentance. Nothing has snatched them or plucked them from their Father's hand. They have walked away themselves. Why else would Jesus tell people to endure until the end to be saved?

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

He is talking to the people who will be hated for the sake of Jesus' name. The believers. He is telling them that if they endure until the end... in what? Believing. That they will be saved. So this clearly shows that believers can fall away. Otherwise, what would they fall away from?

Here's another verse,

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

This verse must be refering to people who were once saved that have fallen away. This is true for many reasons.

Reason 1: They are enlightened. Meaning they know it is the truth.
Reason 2: They have tasted of the heavenly gift. What is the heavenly gift? It is of course salvation. The gift is salvation. What else could the gift be? I suppose you could say something of the Spirit, but that brings up the next reason.
Reason 3: They were made partakers of the Holy Spirit. If you guys believe in total depravity just like we do, then you should know that it is not possible to partake of the Holy Spirit unless you are regenerated. Since your spirit is dead to sin.
Reason 4: They have tasted the good word of God. Meaning that not only have they heard it and believed it, but they had tasted what it says about people that believe.
Reason 5: The powers of the world to come. Tell me, why would an unsaved person be experiencing these powers? What are they? Certainly not something that a nonrepentant unregenerated person could partake of.
Reason 6: It says that it is impossible, if the fall away.. wait, what are they falling away from? Not from sin to sin. They must be falling from something. Namely Salvation to Sin. Since they can't be a more righteous sinner than another sinner.
Reason 7: To renew them unto repentance again. AGAIN. meaning they were repentant at one time. They can't be repentant unless they become saved. Because a sinner is not repentant.
Reason 8: This is the biggest reason. It says it is impossible to renew this to them again because it would be crucifying to them Jesus Christ afresh. AFRESH!!! meaning that Jesus was already crucified for them once. Meaning they were in fact saved and then fell away. Why else would Christ's blood have been spilt for them once?

This is an extreme situation by the way. You can't accidently fall away. You have to purpose it in your heart and actually set out to do it. You have to cease to be repentant. that's the big thing.

Now, the general counter for this position is usually found in 1 John. However, this verse doesn't prove preseverance of saints.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Let's learn something on this verse today that hasn't been adequately explained or pointed out in the past. Who went out from us? We see the answer in the verse immediatly before this. The conversation is on antichrists (plural). It gives mention to "that" antichrist. But that isn't the topic of what is around now. The many antichrists are there. It goes further to explain that the antichrists went out from us, but they were not of us. See, if they were of us, since we are Christians, by definition they could not be antichrist. See the paradox? Us=Christians. Them=antichrists. If they were Christians, they would have remained with us.

1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Ok, so why does he write unto us? Not to teach us the truth, but to keep it alive within us. So that we don't turn from it.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [[but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Notice that in the very same verse that is used to say that if they were of us, they would have remained with us, there is a warning against falling away in verse 24. So whoa nelly! What does all of this mean? It means that when you cease to believe, it is as if you were never part of us. You spilt the blood of Jesus and crushed it into the ground.

Just as God gives us the ability to choose salvation (and doesn't force it on us), He also gives us the ability to walk away.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

This verse is talking to the believers. Why would Jesus be telling a group of believers that He'll spue them from His mouth if they are lukewarm. How must He be talking to believers? Cause how can an unbeliever be lukewarm? If you're a sinner then you are nothing but cold no matter what.

Even the Angels that fell, before they fell knew God and had faith in Him. But they chose Satan instead. Here's another verse for you to debate.

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Obviously he's talking to the people that will believe. Otherwise, it doesn't matter who they forgive or judge or condemn, they'll be condemned anyways and not forgiven.

Look, here's a simple straightfoward example of a person falling away after being forgiven of his sin. I'd like to see how you explain this one.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

It's no mystery that the unpayable debt is our sin. And we are the debtors. You see that this man was forgiven of his debt. He was saved. Just like us. Then he wouldn't forgive another servant. He lost his salvation because of it. Likewise, if we do not forgive our brothers and sisters in Christ (it actually doesn't mention forgiving the unsaved, personally I'd like to be safe and assume that it means them too), then upon our judgement, we will not be forgiven.

Jesus washes away all of our sin. Just like the man was forgiven of his unpayable debt. But there are things we can do that are basically us giving up that forgiveness, that free gift of salvation. Like the man with the unpayable debt did. Like Hebrews warns against, like the people in the group that Jesus told to endure to the end to be saved who didn't endure. We must ask for forgiveness for sins we commit after being saved. Where does the Bible also say this?

No better one to quote than Jesus.
Jhn 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

See, one that is washed is a Christian. We all know this right? But the feet, the feet need washing. What does that mean? Didn't Jesus already wash us clean? Yes, but our feet become dirtied. We need to ask forgiveness to clean that.

Now, the Children of Israel also had people who were part of the covenant and fell away, they were really members of that covenant. The same thing in the New Covenant is true in the old one since Jesus did not abolish the law but came to fulfill it.

1Cr 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Cr 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Cr 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

They were saved JUST as we ARE saved. But they fell away in the wilderness by their foolish temptations.

Unconditional Election
Now, if you can do anything to fall away, then your election is conditional. This is a given since you can do something to fall away just as Adam chose to eat the fruit. Let me explain predestination and election (as they do exist, just not in the Calvinist sense) in such a way that allows for the proper belief in Preseverance of Saints (which, from the above we learn that we are preserved in that we can not be forced or snatched away from God, but we can walk away) by being in scripture. God predestines that all who believe will be saved. He elected us by setting up a rule from the beggining of time. That whosoever would believeth in him would recieve eternal life. John 3:16 is often misquoted by people saying that whosoever is an important word. But that isn't the point, the point is that the elect are the believers. There is no verse that says that God specifically chose certain people to be saved. But He did choose believing as a requirement to be the elect.

Picture it this way, God says that whoever is in the group of believers is the winning group or the elect. All one has to do is to be in that group before your time is up. The other group is the group of unbelievers. So, God sets the rule ahead of time (predestines) that the believers will get saved. Whoever is in that group is the elect. God is even extremely merciful and sends people to tell people that the believing group is the right group to be in. Until time is up, one person can go in between the groups. But if their life isn't right in the believing group at the end, then they are not the elect. Does that explain that?

Now, the way election is used is in saying that God's elect are the ones that are saved or will be saved. I again have no problem with this because it still doesn't show that God actually chose specific people to be saved and others to go to Hell. How is one saved? We see several explanations in the Bible, Romans 10:9 is a great example of such.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

There are several conditions that need to be met before you are saved. None of which are that God has to make you be saved. That should be one of the most condemning parts of all. That the Bible actually gives us requirements to meet before we're saved. It's basically requirements to be part of God's elect. So I do think that God elected people to be saved. Only I don't think it was predestinating specific people TO believe. I think He elected whosoever would believe. Anyone who believes is one of the elect. But you can fall away from that elect group and you won't inherit eternal life. Just as Jesus says that only those who endure until the end will be saved.

[Lightknight]

Remember that the grounds for this debate was that you had already produced a counter to all of my verses and statements. But all you have there is a counter against a general overview of what some people use and believe and no points to counter. So it might be more believeable if you'd disect my previous post apart.

[OutThere]

Here is the point-by-point rebuttal in a different format and with some added material; hope this clears things up.

(citing John 10:28-29) I believe that there is no force in Heaven or Hell or on Earth that can strip your salvation from God. Nothing can pluck you or tear you from God's hand and He will certainly not cast you aside... However, this does not account for someone that chooses to step away from salvation. This would have to be someone who completely denies repentance. Nothing has snatched them or plucked them from their Father's hand. They have walked away themselves.

If “no one” means “no one but you yourself”, then your point would be valid. However, if it means simply “no one at all”, then not even you can pluck yourself from his hand. The context here seems to me to have a little more support for the “no one at all” meaning than the “no one but you” meaning.

(citing Matthew 10:22) He is talking to the people who will be hated for the sake of Jesus' name. The believers. He is telling them that if they endure until the end... in what? Believing. That they will be saved. So this clearly shows that believers can fall away. Otherwise, what would they fall away from?

The question here is whether Jesus is talking about all believers of all time, regardless of dispensation, or whether he is telling the disciples about a future time.

Here is the context of the verse: Jesus had just given instructions to The Twelve about going into the surrounding towns in Israel. These were specific instructions to a specific group of people for a specific situation. Jesus then broadens his instructions to include Gentiles, and in verse 23 he says that they will not finish going through the towns of Israel “until the Son of Man comes”, yet he has not returned.

Prophetically speaking, there is no gap seen in the OT between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel’s vision, yet in our hindsight we know that the prophetic timetable for Israel was interrupted. This interruption is the current Church Age, the “times of the Gentiles” so to speak. Israel’s rejection of her Messiah turned God’s exclusive relationship with Israel to the Gentiles for an allotted time, after which the prophecies will continue to completion. It is only then, in the Tribulation (the “time of Jacob’s trouble”), that the Jewish evangelists will complete their journey to all the towns of Israel (see Revelation and the 144,000).

It is during the Tribulation that believers will have to “endure”. This will no longer be “the age of grace” where each believer is personally indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Salvation during that time will be the way it was before Jesus came the first time, by worshiping the one true God of Israel. So this command to “endure” is for believers without the Holy Spirit.

(citing Hebrews 6:4-6) This verse must be referring to people who were once saved that have fallen away. This is true for many reasons…

Here again the context needs to be carefully considered. The chapter begins with an exhortation for believers to go beyond the basics and move on to meatier subjects. Verses 4-6 are given as the reason: that we must not continually dwell on what is impossible. So this scenario of a believer getting lost is hypothetical, i.e., “Even if you could lose your salvation it would be impossible to regain it, but we know that’s not a concern so let’s move ahead now” (see esp. verse 9). So I agree with the “many reasons” you listed that this is a description of a believer, but that the context indicates a hypothetical scenario and not an actual possibility.

Since at the moment of salvation we become “new creations” who died with Christ and were re-born, we are no longer capable of re-acquiring our old dead nature. Therefore it is impossible to lose our salvation. Another thing that happens at the moment of salvation is that we are “sealed with the Holy Spirit” (Eph 1:13). And no one but God can break that seal, not even we ourselves.

Now, the general counter for this position is usually found in 1 John. However, this verse doesn't prove perseverance of saints… If they were Christians, they would have remained with us.

But neither does it disprove POS. In fact, your last sentence there seems to be supporting the POS view, i.e., Christians don’t stop being believers.

(citing 1 John 2:22-24) Notice that in the very same verse that is used to say that if they were of us, they would have remained with us, there is a warning against falling away in verse 24. So whoa nelly! What does all of this mean? It means that when you cease to believe, it is as if you were never part of us. You spilt the blood of Jesus and crushed it into the ground.

Verse 24 says “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” Seems clear in English, but the Greek word allows for two possible meanings of the word translated “remain”, the other meaning being “reside”. Here is the reference:

Originally Posted by ”NET Bible footnote”

The word translated “remain” may also be translated “reside” (3 times in 2:24). See also the notes on the translation of the Greek verb mevnw (menw) in 2:6 and in 2:19. Here the word can really have both nuances of “residing” and “remaining” and it is impossible for the English reader to catch both nuances if the translation provides only one. This occurs three times in 2:24.

If you put the word “reside” in this verse, it means that you already possess the Son and Father and will continue in that state. Now look at verse 27: “Now as for you, the anointing (Holy Spirit) that you received from him resides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things, it is true and is not a lie. Just as it has taught you, you reside in him.” This is a statement of fact, not a command to endure. Along with verse 25 where we are told about the promise of eternal (not losable) life, I think there is ample support for POS by John.

(citing Revelation 3:13-16) This verse is talking to the believers. Why would Jesus be telling a group of believers that He'll spue them from His mouth if they are lukewarm. How must He be talking to believers? Cause how can an unbeliever be lukewarm? If you're a sinner then you are nothing but cold no matter what.

Yes, these letters were written to groups of church-age believers, but remember that not everyone in a group is a true believer. In these letters Jesus distinguishes between the faithful and the unrepentant, giving encouragement to the one and warning to the other. But even if the warnings apply to true believers, it cannot be dogmatically stated that these people are in danger of losing salvation. In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul speaks of the figurative burning of a believer’s works, and states that the believer who shirked his duties as a Christian will “suffer loss, [and] he himself will be saved, but only as through fire”. Jesus can and did use pretty strong language for the loss of rewards by those who are his, so the context does not demand the meaning of being “spewed from [Jesus] mouth” to refer necessarily to salvation.

(citing the parable in Matthew 18:21-35 about the forgiven servant who refused to forgive others)

This parable is not about salvation but forgiveness and judgment. God would never declare a person saved, guaranteeing their place in heaven (2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5, Eph. 1:14), then violate his own nature by going back on his promise. Salvation or the lack thereof is not determined at either the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Great White Throne Judgment; these are for the purpose of judging works and determining either reward or loss. Jesus said that the standard used in these judgments would be according to the measure we used for others (Matthew 7:2). Clearly then, the parable of chapter 18 illustrates this application of judgment as it applies to forgiveness, not the loss of salvation.

(citing 1 Cor. 10:1-5 where the Israelites in the wilderness were “lost”) They were saved JUST as we ARE saved. But they fell away in the wilderness by their foolish temptations.

This is an “apples to oranges” comparison that ignores the difference between the guaranteed salvation of the Age of Grace and the conditional salvation of other ages, and between corporate and individual judgment. The ancient Israelites did not have the Holy Spirit within them individually, and although God has repeatedly punished his chosen people Israel, he has never and will never abandon them completely.

Even without that consideration, the context tells us in verses 11-13 that “These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come. So let the one who thinks he is standing be careful that he does not fall. No trial has overtaken you that is not faced by others. And God is faithful: He will not let you be tried beyond what you are able to bear, but with the trial will also provide a way out so that you may be able to endure it.”

[Lightknight]

Hey man, it's going to take me longer to do this debate than I origionally thought. I live in Florida and there are some issues here right now with power. I'll get to your post as soon as possible. I apologize for the delay.

[OutThere]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Hey man, it's going to take me longer to do this debate than I origionally thought. I live in Florida and there are some issues here right now with power. I'll get to your post as soon as possible. I apologize for the delay.

No problem, take your time.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by OutThere

Here is the point-by-point rebuttal in a different format and with some added material; hope this clears things up.

>>

If “no one” means “no one but you yourself”, then your point would be valid. However, if it means simply “no one at all”, then not even you can pluck yourself from his hand. The context here seems to me to have a little more support for the “no one at all” meaning than the “no one but you” meaning.>>

except that you can't pluck yourself away from someone or steal yourself from anyone. It is an action that is being done to you. Then intent of the verse is just to ensure us that nothing/no one can steal our salvation from us. But it says nothing about us willingly walking away. You know that.

>>

The question here is whether Jesus is talking about all believers of all time, regardless of dispensation, or whether he is telling the disciples about a future time.>>

No, that isn't a factor here. Any Christians falling away (not enduring) is still a counter against Eternal Security. So no, that isn't the question.

Here is the context of the verse: Jesus had just given instructions to The Twelve about going into the surrounding towns in Israel. These were specific instructions to a specific group of people for a specific situation. Jesus then broadens his instructions to include Gentiles, and in verse 23 he says that they will not finish going through the towns of lace w:st=" />lace w:st="on">Israellace> “until the Son of Man comes”, yet he has not returned. >>

Prophetically speaking, there is no gap seen in the OT between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel’s vision, yet in our hindsight we know that the prophetic timetable for lace w:st="on">Israellace> was interrupted. This interruption is the current Church Age, the “times of the Gentiles” so to speak. Israel’s rejection of her Messiah turned God’s exclusive relationship with lace w:st="on">Israellace> to the Gentiles for an allotted time, after which the prophecies will continue to completion. It is only then, in the Tribulation (the “time of Jacob’s trouble”), that the Jewish evangelists will complete their journey to all the towns of lace w:st="on">Israellace> (see Revelation and the 144,000).>>

It is during the Tribulation that believers will have to “endure”. This will no longer be “the age of grace” where each believer is personally indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Salvation during that time will be the way it was before Jesus came the first time, by worshiping the one true God of Israel. So this command to “endure” is for believers without the Holy Spirit.>>

[/QUOTE] No, I don't know why on Earth you would think this. I've done a good deal of research on this verse and no one, Calvinist or noncalvinist, proeternal security or antieternal security, think anything along those lines. This verse is refering to believers. All believers. The time of persecution didn't come till after the day of Pentecost. Steven was the first to be martyred (excluding Jesus of course). He was certainly filled with the spirit. So I don't see what you're refering to. Or what difference it would have on anything. So I really don't see any rebuttal here.

>>

Here again the context needs to be carefully considered. The chapter begins with an exhortation for believers to go beyond the basics and move on to meatier subjects. Verses 4-6 are given as the reason: that we must not continually dwell on what is impossible. So this scenario of a believer getting lost is hypothetical, i.e., “Even if you could lose your salvation it would be impossible to regain it, but we know that’s not a concern so let’s move ahead now” (see esp. verse 9). So I agree with the “many reasons” you listed that this is a description of a believer, but that the context indicates a hypothetical scenario and not an actual possibility.>>

Since at the moment of salvation we become “new creations” who died with Christ and were re-born, we are no longer capable of re-acquiring our old dead nature. Therefore it is impossible to lose our salvation. Another thing that happens at the moment of salvation is that we are “sealed with the Holy Spirit” (Eph 1:13). And no one but God can break that seal, not even we ourselves.>>

Was Adam not "re-born"? How/why was he able to fall?

I have heard two arguements against the verses I've presented. One was people who claimed that it was not refering to believers. Most of them turned to your arguement as they realised that it must be refering to a believers falling away. However, this arguement is also nullified by the beggining of the verse which is usually left out.

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Hbr 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

This verse is seriously to warn people not to fall away. As you can clearly see with this opening series.

As for being sealed, again, just like the verse about being plucked, you are saved when you believe. Nothing can steal you from God. However, you can willingly walk away from that salvation. It is a stupid thing to do. But people do it all the time. If eternal security was true, then since I personally know that I really and truly believe, I could start sinning and leading a life of such vile sin as you'd not believe. Because i would have no fear of losing my salvation since I know just how much I love God and have faith in Him. This is a huge danger in seriously believing in eternal security. However, while I do believe that I could foolishly walk away (though I don't think I ever would, I am a Christian in lifestyle, it is me and to walk away would be to cease to be me), I am confident that nothing can steal my salvation.

>>

But neither does it disprove POS. In fact, your last sentence there seems to be supporting the POS view, i.e., Christians don’t stop being believers.>>

>>

Verse 24 says “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” Seems clear in English, but the Greek word allows for two possible meanings of the word translated “remain”, the other meaning being “reside”. Here is the reference:>>

Be careful not to break up my John explanation. It is in three parts. In its entirety, it should be read together, like this.

Originally Posted by I previously

Now, the general counter for this position is usually found in 1 John. However, this verse doesn't prove preseverance of saints.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Let's learn something on this verse today that hasn't been adequately explained or pointed out in the past. Who went out from us? We see the answer in the verse immediatly before this. The conversation is on antichrists (plural). It gives mention to "that" antichrist. But that isn't the topic of what is around now. The many antichrists are there. It goes further to explain that the antichrists went out from us, but they were not of us. See, if they were of us, since we are Christians, by definition they could not be antichrist. See the paradox? Us=Christians. Them=antichrists. If they were Christians, they would have remained with us.

1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Ok, so why does he write unto us? Not to teach us the truth, but to keep it alive within us. So that we don't turn from it.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [[but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Notice that in the very same verse that is used to say that if they were of us, they would have remained with us, there is a warning against falling away in verse 24. So whoa nelly! What does all of this mean? It means that when you cease to believe, it is as if you were never part of us. You spilt the blood of Jesus and crushed it into the ground.

Just as God gives us the ability to choose salvation (and doesn't force it on us), He also gives us the ability to walk away.

The point is that whoever these people were, they were no longer Christians. They may have been Christians at one point, and while they were they stayed, but now they are no longer believers and have thusly left.

Yes, these letters were written to groups of church-age believers, but remember that not everyone in a group is a true believer. In these letters Jesus distinguishes between the faithful and the unrepentant, giving encouragement to the one and warning to the other. But even if the warnings apply to true believers, it cannot be dogmatically stated that these people are in danger of losing salvation. In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul speaks of the figurative burning of a believer’s works, and states that the believer who shirked his duties as a Christian will “suffer loss, [and] he himself will be saved, but only as through fire”. Jesus can and did use pretty strong language for the loss of rewards by those who are his, so the context does not demand the meaning of being “spewed from [Jesus] mouth” to refer necessarily to salvation.>>

However, the point is that they are still being "warmer" than cold. If even just luke warm. An unbeliever cannot be anything but cold. You know that. So your arguement doesn't follow.

>>

This parable is not about salvation but forgiveness and judgment. God would never declare a person saved, guaranteeing their place in heaven (2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5, Eph. 1:14), then violate his own nature by going back on his promise. Salvation or the lack thereof is not determined at either the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Great White Throne Judgment; these are for the purpose of judging works and determining either reward or loss. Jesus said that the standard used in these judgments would be according to the measure we used for others (Matthew 7:2). Clearly then, the parable of chapter 18 illustrates this application of judgment as it applies to forgiveness, not the loss of salvation.>>

No, it is refering to salvation. It is not refering to being rewarded. Either we are forgiven of our sins or we are not. If we do not forgive others then our own sins will not be forgiven.

You have done this passage and explanation an extreme injustice. Here we see an example of someone who is clearly in a bind with an unpayable debt (the 10,000 talents is actually an unpayable debt)

Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents

He is then forgiven of this unpayable debt (sin). (only after the servant worshipped him and repented and asked forgiveness).

Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Then this servant went to another servant and held a debt against him (just as Jesus is refering to one believer not forgiving another)

Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

Because of this, the Lord (God) called the servant who had been forgiven of sin back. He then held the servant accountable for that same debt that had previously been covered.

Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

This is perhaps the strongest bit of evidence against eternal security. This is surely not refering to rewards in heaven and I hope this opens your eyes to that. You seem like a person who is open to such truths.

>>

This is an “apples to oranges” comparison that ignores the difference between the guaranteed salvation of the Age of Grace and the conditional salvation of other ages, and between corporate and individual judgment. The ancient Israelites did not have the Holy Spirit within them individually, and although God has repeatedly punished his chosen people lace w:st="on">Israellace>, he has never and will never abandon them completely.>>

Even without that consideration, the context tells us in verses 11-13 that “These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come. So let the one who thinks he is standing be careful that he does not fall. No trial has overtaken you that is not faced by others. And God is faithful: He will not let you be tried beyond what you are able to bear, but with the trial will also provide a way out so that you may be able to endure it.”>>

So you believe that Eternal Security has not always existed? But here we see that they drank of the same cup that we have. You forget that the OT is only a shadow of the things of the New Testament. But the same truths that are applied to us were applied to them, as being a shadow. The OT law was a shadow of the good things to come.

Now, about Corinthians. Your arguement has absolutely no bearing. It is refering to all sin.

1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

God provides a way out of every form and kind of sin. You are never forced to sin. However, clearly, we do still fall to sin every now and then. Unless you claim to be perfect now, which I certainly can't claim.

[OutThere]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

except that you can't pluck yourself away from someone or steal yourself from anyone. It is an action that is being done to you. Then intent of the verse is just to ensure us that nothing/no one can steal our salvation from us. But it says nothing about us willingly walking away. You know that.

What I know is that the text does not support any exceptions to "no one". Whether the "plucking" is active (done by you) or passive (done to you by another) is irrelevant to who can perform it. This is what I understand your argument to be on this point:

Premise- a person cannot pluck or steal himself from God's hand
Fact- this verse speaks of the inability of being plucked from God's hand
Conclusion- therefore "no one" must by definition exclude one's self

I disagree with your premise, as there is no proof for it. It is an assumption you started with. On what authority or proof can you assume this? The NT makes it clear that we are God's possession, so to remove ourselves from his hand is, in fact, stealing what does not belong to us. 1 Cor. 6:19-20 says "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body." So the reason we can steal ourselves is because we don't own ourselves. My argument is:

Premise- a saved person is not his own; he belongs to God
Fact- this verse speaks of the inability of being plucked from God's hand
Conclusion- therefore "no one" applies to one's self as well as others

No, that isn't a factor here. Any Christians falling away (not enduring) is still a counter against Eternal Security. So no, that isn't the question.

Eh? Why isn't it a factor, just because you decided a priori that it isn't? I don't see how you made any valid point here.

No, I don't know why on Earth you would think this. I've done a good deal of research on this verse and no one, Calvinist or noncalvinist, proeternal security or antieternal security, think anything along those lines. This verse is refering to believers. All believers. The time of persecution didn't come till after the day of Pentecost. Steven was the first to be martyred (excluding Jesus of course). He was certainly filled with the spirit. So I don't see what you're refering to. Or what difference it would have on anything. So I really don't see any rebuttal here.

I think what I do because I see it in the Bible, and I really don't care how popular or unpopular a given idea is. Appealing to popularity is a common logical fallacy. And I did not say that this verse did not refer to believers, but that these particular believers are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit individually.

The Holy Spirit must be removed from the earth before God rains down the judgment of the Tribulation, so any who become believers during that time cannot be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. How are these people then "saved"? If they in fact do not have the Spirit which is "a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance", then their salvation must be conditioned on something which is not guaranteed. These are the believers who must "endure".

Was Adam not "re-born"? How/why was he able to fall?

Only the spiritually dead need to be reborn, and Adam was not created spiritually dead. He did not die spiritually until the moment he sinned against God. So Adam was spiritually alive when he fell, but not born again. That condition can only apply to those who were dead and then made alive again. Neither was Adam personally indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Surely you recognize the uniqueness of Adam's situation and why it cannot be applied to any of his offspring.

I have heard two arguements against the verses I've presented. One was people who claimed that it was not refering to believers. Most of them turned to your arguement as they realised that it must be refering to a believers falling away. However, this arguement is also nullified by the beggining of the verse which is usually left out.

I appealed to the context, didn't I? That would include the first 3 verses, so don't say I left them out. The meaning of the first 3 verses is that we must not continually focus on the basics but move on to maturity. There is no warning here at all, but an exhortation to mature.

As for being sealed, again, just like the verse about being plucked, you are saved when you believe. Nothing can steal you from God. However, you can willingly walk away from that salvation. It is a stupid thing to do. But people do it all the time.

This was already covered at the beginning of this post.

If eternal security was true, then since I personally know that I really and truly believe, I could start sinning and leading a life of such vile sin as you'd not believe. Because i would have no fear of losing my salvation since I know just how much I love God and have faith in Him. This is a huge danger in seriously believing in eternal security. However, while I do believe that I could foolishly walk away (though I don't think I ever would, I am a Christian in lifestyle, it is me and to walk away would be to cease to be me), I am confident that nothing can steal my salvation.

Didn't Paul cover this in his letter to the Romans (see esp. chapter 6)? Why would he be exhorting us not to sin and never mention the danger of losing one's salvation? In fact, in Rom. 6:18 he says that we are "enslaved to righteousness". Slaves are slaves, not people who are free to go as they choose. And on what would any believer base his confidence of salvation? Our own strength? Yet even Paul had "no confidence in the flesh"! 1 John 5:13 says "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." If I am not eternally secure, then there is no way that verse can be true! Eternal doesn't mean eternal if it can be lost.

It means that when you cease to believe, it is as if you were never part of us.... The point is that whoever these people were, they were no longer Christians. They may have been Christians at one point, and while they were they stayed, but now they are no longer believers and have thusly left.

The text does not say "it is as if"; those are words you added. Here is the exact quote: "1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." Where is "as if"? As I tried to point out, this is a statement of fact.

However, the point is that they are still being "warmer" than cold. If even just luke warm. An unbeliever cannot be anything but cold. You know that. So your arguement doesn't follow.

Like I said, even if they are believers, there is no justification for declaring that being spewed out of Jesus' mouth constitutes loss of salvation. You completely ignored that point, so it really is your argument that "doesn't follow".

No, it is refering to salvation. It is not refering to being rewarded. Either we are forgiven of our sins or we are not. If we do not forgive others then our own sins will not be forgiven.

You can make declarations of your opinion but that is hardly a convincing argument. Deciding what it must mean is precisely what we're debating, so to simply declare your meaning the correct one is to say "I say it means thus and so" without any reason.

You have done this passage and explanation an extreme injustice. Here we see an example of someone who is clearly in a bind with an unpayable debt (the 10,000 talents is actually an unpayable debt)...

Extreme injustice?? Is disagreeing with you an injustice? Sorry, but disagreements happen, and my opinion is as valid as yours. You miss the whole point of the parable, which is that you will be judged according to the standard you use against others. Are you saying God can turn back on the promise of eternal life? Do you accuse God of changing his mind, or of equivocating on the meaning of "eternal"? Far from being "the strongest bit of evidence against eternal security", your view does great injustice to the nature of God.

So you believe that Eternal Security has not always existed? But here we see that they drank of the same cup that we have. You forget that the OT is only a shadow of the things of the New Testament. But the same truths that are applied to us were applied to them, as being a shadow. The OT law was a shadow of the good things to come.

You admit that the OT is only a shadow of the things of the NT, yet you lump them together when your system requires it. It's a shadow, not the real thing, so by your own standard there must be differences.

Now, about Corinthians. Your arguement has absolutely no bearing. It is refering to all sin... God provides a way out of every form and kind of sin. You are never forced to sin. However, clearly, we do still fall to sin every now and then. Unless you claim to be perfect now, which I certainly can't claim.

Again, simply declaring your view to be the correct one does not win points in any debate. The fact that we do sin because no one is perfect is a very good argument in favor of eternal security. Since we are so hopelessly inclined to sin, practically no one could ever be saved.

Over all, I see the arguments against eternal security as arguments in favor of salvation by works. In other words, if you can lose it by works then you can gain it by works. To say that you can remain saved only by choosing to do so is to say that you have power of your own to live righteously instead of being completely dependent on the Holy Spirit for this power. That's the whole meaning of salvation by grace through faith: it is not of ourselves. If you had the ability to keep yourself saved then you would have "something to boast about". This is against what the Bible teaches about salvation.

[Lightknight]

I've been away from this site for a long time. I'll get back to you as soon as possible. I apologize. Hurricanes have really run amuck down here.

[OutThere]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

I've been away from this site for a long time. I'll get back to you as soon as possible. I apologize. Hurricanes have really run amuck down here.

Again, no problem. Just glad to see you can still get online at all!

[OutThere]

Hello?