[Danny]

Originally Posted by thjodmar

And Dominionist/Post-Milenialist denies Total Depravity of Man the fallen nature, that we are dead in our spiritual life and we can do no good. We cannot seek after God, and if we do acts that are not in faith then they are sin.

How on earth does Postmillenialism negate the doctrine of Total Depravity? I know at least few staunch five-point Calvinists who are Postmillenialist. Besides that, Postmillenialism is an eschatological doctrine, and Total Depravity is a soteriological doctrine; they have very little (if anything) to do with one another.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by thjodmar

nd Dominionist/Post-Milenialist denies Total Depravity of Man the fallen nature, that we are dead in our spiritual life and we can do no good. We cannot seek after God, and if we do acts that are not in faith then they are sin.

This is an outright lie. Dominion theology and postmillennialism absolutely do not deny total depravity. We believe, rather, that God will save people--that the Great Commission will be fulfilled.

[thjodmar]

Originally Posted by Danny

How on earth does Postmillenialism negate the doctrine of Total Depravity? I know at least few staunch five-point Calvinists who are Postmillenialist. Besides that, Postmillenialism is an eschatological doctrine, and Total Depravity is a soteriological doctrine; they have very little (if anything) to do with one another.

Post-Millenialism negate the doctrine of Total Depravity by allow a human effort.

Post-Millennialism took theological shape with the teachings of Daniel Whitby (1638-1726), teaches the second Coming of Christ will follow the thousand years of prace and righteousness. Whitby stated that the present agencies every evil in the world would be corrected before Christ shall appear.

Man cannot do good according to the scriptures and the doctrine of Total Depravity. If Christ will not come back before WE set up the thousand years of peace then he has a long time to wait. All our works are nothing but filthy rags. There is no one who is righteous, no not one.

A more recent postmillennialist, Augustus Hopkins Strong, says: "The Scripture foretells a period, called in the language of prophecy "a thousand years." A comparison of the passages bearing on this subject leads us to the conclusion that this millennial blessedness and dominion is prior to the second advent."

Further, he defines the millennium as:

".... a period in the later days of the Church militant.

... members of Christ's churches become so conscious of their strength that they shall to extend unknown before, triump over the power of evil both within and without."

The progress of evil has veen so great in the past century that this theory has been brought into disrepute and generally is not held today even by amillennialist.

The conclusion of this system is the idea of a world free from evil is envisioned as a result of man's efforts.

Dominionist would be consider a hyper version of Post-Millenialism. It is dangerous and Heretical.


Thjodmar

[Danny]

Originally Posted by thjodmar

Post-Millenialism negate the doctrine of Total Depravity by allow a human effort.

Post-Millennialism took theological shape with the teachings of Daniel Whitby (1638-1726), teaches the second Coming of Christ will follow the thousand years of prace and righteousness. Whitby stated that the present agencies every evil in the world would be corrected before Christ shall appear.

Man cannot do good according to the scriptures and the doctrine of Total Depravity. If Christ will not come back before WE set up the thousand years of peace then he has a long time to wait. All our works are nothing but filthy rags. There is no one who is righteous, no not one.

A more recent postmillennialist, Augustus Hopkins Strong, says: "The Scripture foretells a period, called in the language of prophecy "a thousand years." A comparison of the passages bearing on this subject leads us to the conclusion that this millennial blessedness and dominion is prior to the second advent."

Further, he defines the millennium as:

".... a period in the later days of the Church militant.

... members of Christ's churches become so conscious of their strength that they shall to extend unknown before, triump over the power of evil both within and without."

The progress of evil has veen so great in the past century that this theory has been brought into disrepute and generally is not held today even by amillennialist.

The conclusion of this system is the idea of a world free from evil is envisioned as a result of man's efforts.

Dominionist would be consider a hyper version of Post-Millenialism. It is dangerous and Heretical.


Thjodmar

However, as Travis pointed out, this is a blatent strawman. Postmillenialism does not necessarily entail that the Church will bring about the Millenial Reign by its own workings—it states that God will work in the hearts of men to turn them toward Him by numbers never before seen by men. Why is that heretical? Without strawmanning, you can no more protest Postmillenialism by shouting "Total Depravity!" than you can protest the idea of salvation at all by the same principle.

Secondly, appealing to "the progress of evil in the past century" to denounce Postmillenialism is heresy by your own definition, as it negates Sola Scriptura by drawing Theological conclusions from extrabiblical evidence.

[thjodmar]

Originally Posted by Danny

Why is that heretical?

The following is quotes from a website on Dominion Theology also refered to as Christian Reconstructionism.

Its most common form, Theonomic Reconstructionism, represents one of the most extreme forms of Fundamentalist Christianity thought. The followers are attempting to convert the laws of United States so that they match those in the Hebrew Scriptures. They intend to achieve this by using the freedom of religion in the US to train a generation of children in private Christian religious schools. Later, their graduates will be charged with the responsibility of creating a new Bible-based political, religious and social order. One of the first tasks of this order will be to eliminate religious freedom. Their eventual goal is to achieve the "Kingdom of God" in which much of the world is converted to Christianity. No armed force or insurrection will be needed; in fact, they believe that there will be little opposition to their plan. People will willingly accept it if it is properly presented to them.

All religious organizations, congregations etc. other than Christian would be suppressed. Nonconforming Evangelical, main line and liberal Christian religious institutions would no longer be allowed to hold services, organize, proselytize, etc. Society would revert to the laws and punishments of the Hebrew Scriptures. Any person who advocated or practiced other religious beliefs outside of their home would be tried for idolatry and executed. Blasphemy, and adultery behavior would be criminalized; those found guilty would also be executed. At that time that this essay was originally written, this was the only religious movement in North America of which we were aware which advocates genocide for followers of minority religions and non-conforming members of their own religion. Since then, we have learned of two conservative Christian pastors in Texas who have advocated the execution of all Wiccans. Ralph Reed, the executive director of the conservative public policy group the Christian Coalition has criticized Reconstructionism as "an authoritarian ideology that threatens the most basic civil liberties of a free and democratic society."

Includes the concept that "God’s revealed standing laws are a reflection of His immutable moral character and, as such, are absolute in the sense of being nonarbitrary, objective, universal, and established in advance of particular circumstances (thus applicable to general types of moral situations)." 6,7 Thus, each of the 613 laws given to Moses and recorded in the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Hebrew Scriptures) are binding on people of all nations, cultures, and religions forever, except for those laws which have been rescinded or modified by further revelation.


The use of the death penalty would be greatly expanded, when the Hebrew Scriptures' laws are reapplied. People will be executed for adultery, blasphemy, heresy, idolatry, prostitution, evil sorcery, etc.



It sure does sound like the Christian version of the Taliban to me..
A very dangerous and Heretical teaching..

thjodmar

[Danny]

Originally Posted by thjodmar

The following is quotes from a website on Dominion Theology also refered to as Christian Reconstructionism.

...

It sure does sound like the Christian version of the Taliban to me..
A very dangerous and Heretical teaching..

thjodmar

Now you've completely shifted gears. You started by attacking Postmillenialism by appealing to Total Depravity, I obliterated that line of logic, so you ignored my argument entirely and are now attacking Theonomy by means of a sensationalist argument? Really, I'm disappointed.

1. I would appreciate it if you would address my argument against your thesis that Postmillenialism denies Total Inability.
   
2. Are you actually comparing the inerrant, perfect, just Law of Almighty God to terrorism? Remember: It is not just some fundamentalist Christian reconstructionist website you're attacking; it's the the very law of God you so staunchly defended only a few posts back. Mosaic Law clearly calls for the execution of all those found guilty of murder, adultery, sodomy, rape, blasphemy, and witchcraft, among many other things. If you want to raise issue against these principles, you're going to have to give me something better than, "Sounds a lot like terrorism to me." Again, you've committed heresy by your own definition by appealing to an emotional argument over a Scriptural one.

[thjodmar]

I never said that Postmillenialism is heretical. I said that Postmillenialism is outside the pale of Orthodoxy because it implies a Human effort to bring in God's Kingdom instead of letting God brings in HIS Kingdom. The millenial is the celebration of the marriage of the lamb with HIS church. The marriage of the lamb is prior to the millenial when the rapture/second coming takes place in one event called Post-Tribulationalism also know has Historical Premillenialism due to the early church fathers believing in this system of belief. The feast of the marriage feast takes place in the millenial. Christ will reign here for a thousand years with his bride.

Regardless of whether you accept it or not, postmillenialism implies that man must bring in God's kingdom and is a human effort. It is a not a strawman. It is fact. Which totally denies Total Depravity. It is a pipedream that will never happen for we can never create a utopia.

To say that it is not a human effort is the same as when Arminianist claim they believe in Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone but they really do not. Because they believe we must choose God and that is a Work based salvation but they deny it to be a work based salvation.

We must have NO effort to bring on God's kingdom. God is the only one who can bring in his kingdom..

Man will try to bring in his own kingdom durning the terrible Great Tribulation period which God will allow to prove to man that NOTHING can DO is Good and will prove for all eternity that we failed without God and that God is the only lawgiver and We owe him everything.

You then asked why Dominionist Theology was Heretical. I quoted an article on Dominion Theology proving it was Heretical..

We can never bring righteous justice. Only God can bring righteous Justice. Only God can dispense his Law durning or after the Millenial. No Human government, nor Christian Theocracy can EVER dispense righteous justice.
Of Course Gods MORAL Law is binding on all Men in all generations world without end. Those are the Ten Commandments.

God's government durning the millenial will be righteous, It will be justice, and God will dispense his law.. But NOT through us. Through and of himself.

I compared Not God's righteous laws to terrorism, but Man's justice of God's laws to terrorism.

Might I also add that the 700+ Hebrew Laws of the Old testament were not God's MORAL Law but were Ceremonial Laws, Civil Laws, and Ritualist Laws that CHRIST fulfilled and did away with...

Dominionist Theologist is nothing more then the Pharistical Legalism of the Jews. Which also man added to God's law..

Dominion Theology again I will say is DANGEROUS and HERETICAL..

Again I will say it is a Hyper Version of Post Millenialism.

As for Post Millenialism, I still believe it to be outside the pale of Orthodoxy.

Thjodmar

Originally Posted by Danny

Now you've completely shifted gears. You started by attacking Postmillenialism by appealing to Total Depravity, I obliterated that line of logic, so you ignored my argument entirely and are now attacking Theonomy by means of a sensationalist argument? Really, I'm disappointed.

1. I would appreciate it if you would address my argument against your thesis that Postmillenialism denies Total Inability.
   
2. Are you actually comparing the inerrant, perfect, just Law of Almighty God to terrorism? Remember: It is not just some fundamentalist Christian reconstructionist website you're attacking; it's the the very law of God you so staunchly defended only a few posts back. Mosaic Law clearly calls for the execution of all those found guilty of murder, adultery, sodomy, rape, blasphemy, and witchcraft, among many other things. If you want to raise issue against these principles, you're going to have to give me something better than, "Sounds a lot like terrorism to me." Again, you've committed heresy by your own definition by appealing to an emotional argument over a Scriptural one.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by thjodmar

I never said that Postmillenialism is heretical. I said that Postmillenialism is outside the pale of Orthodoxy

I don't know if you're aware of this, but the definition of "Heresy" is "That which is outside of the pale of orthodoxy." By saying something is outside the pale of Orthodoxy, you're saying it's heresy.

because it implies a Human effort to bring in God's Kingdom instead of letting God brings in HIS Kingdom.

...

Regardless of whether you accept it or not, postmillenialism implies that man must bring in God's kingdom and is a human effort. It is a not a strawman. It is fact. Which totally denies Total Depravity. It is a pipedream that will never happen for we can never create a utopia.

And I've already shown this logic to be wrong. Postmillenialism states nothing but that the Great Commission will experience phenomenal sucess in the end of days, immediately before the return of Christ. It says nothing of the Church accomplishing this success by human effort. You're adding that yourself. You've heard it from the mouth of one staunch Calvinist Postmillenialist already (Travis), and I'm sure I could provide you with other quotes from more scholarly authorities on the subject, if you'd like.

To say that it is not a human effort is the same as when Arminianist claim they believe in Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone but they really do not. Because they believe we must choose God and that is a Work based salvation but they deny it to be a work based salvation.

No; to say that it is not a human effort is the same as when a Calvinist says that He was saved purely by the grace of God having replaced his heart of stone with a heart of flesh. As I said before, you can no more appeal to Total Depravity to denounce Postmillenialism than you can to denounce the very principle of regeneration and salvation.

We must have NO effort to bring on God's kingdom. God is the only one who can bring in his kingdom..

Postmillenialism does not state otherwise.

Man will try to bring in his own kingdom durning the terrible Great Tribulation period which God will allow to prove to man that NOTHING can DO is Good and will prove for all eternity that we failed without God and that God is the only lawgiver and We owe him everything.

Postmillenialism operates under the belief that the Great Tribulation occured about 1,930 years ago. You're failing to see that Postmillenialism is not about the Church trying to force its will on the earth—it's about God fulfilling His will on the earth.

You then asked why Dominionist Theology was Heretical. I quoted an article on Dominion Theology proving it was Heretical..

No, I asked what was heretical about the thought of "God [working] in the hearts of men to turn them toward Him by numbers never before seen." This is Postmillenialism; what you're asserting is Postmillenialism is nothing but your own invention—an intentional misrepresentation of a doctrine with which you disagree, that you can more easily ridicule (i.e., a StrawMan argument).

We can never bring righteous justice. Only God can bring righteous Justice. Only God can dispense his Law durning or after the Millenial. No Human government, nor Christian Theocracy can EVER dispense righteous justice.

Of Course Gods MORAL Law is binding on all Men in all generations world without end. Those are the Ten Commandments.

God's government durning the millenial will be righteous, It will be justice, and God will dispense his law.. But NOT through us. Through and of himself.

I compared Not God's righteous laws to terrorism, but Man's justice of God's laws to terrorism.

Romans 13
¹Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. ²Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. ³For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, ⁴for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. ⁵Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ⁶For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. ⁷Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. (ESV)

Civil government is appointed by God in order to carry out His justice. You cannot say that human government cannot rightly dispense God's justice when He has so explicitly appointed them to do just that.

However, now you are arguing against the doctrine of Theonomy, not the doctrine of Postmillenialism. Though the two are related, as far as I can tell, they're not one and the same.

Might I also add that the 700+ Hebrew Laws of the Old testament were not God's MORAL Law but were Ceremonial Laws, Civil Laws, and Ritualist Laws that CHRIST fulfilled and did away with...

Dominionist Theologist is nothing more then the Pharistical Legalism of the Jews. Which also man added to God's law..

The civil laws have been done away with, eh? Okay. In that case, I have a few questions for you.

Is it ever right for a civil justice system to punish any criminal for any crime committed under any circumstances?

If so, why, what crimes are worthy of punishment, and to what standard should we appeal to determine the just penalty for said crimes?

[thjodmar]

Originally Posted by Danny

And I've already shown this logic to be wrong.

(Answer) No you have not.

Originally Posted by Danny

Postmillenialism states nothing but that the Great Commission will experience phenomenal sucess in the end of days, immediately before the return of Christ.

(Answer) This is clearly against Biblical teaching since it says in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling Away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.

The falling away will be a GREAT APOSTASY in the Church of God immediately before the return of Christ. There will be Remnant of Gods people before the Millenial.

There will not be a phenomenal success in the end of the days before the return of Christ.

Originally Posted by danny

It says nothing of the Church accomplishing this success by human effort. You're adding that yourself. You've heard it from the mouth of one staunch Calvinist Postmillenialist already (Travis), and I'm sure I could provide you with other quotes from more scholarly authorities on the subject, if you'd like.

(Answer) I have read more than enough on the Post-Millenialism and Dominionist Theology. I need no other quote. Whether you believe it or not, from the mouth of the postmills themselves they are putting human effort into the work of God's Kingdom. Am I suppose to believe you and one other postmill person against the hundreds of books, articles, websites I have read on the issue.. Certainly not. You may not even beware of what post millenialism really teaches..

One answer is for sure. The bible teaches that CHRIST will REIGN on THE EARTH for 1 thousand years. and that HE will establish HIS Kingdom on the Earth.. Not through the Great Commission, Not through Human Effort. But by the Power and the Glory of his Majesty. Human Will, will be broken before the millenial. Mankind will be in its darkest hour, and only then will it prove to man that we can not do it ourselves, that we need a savior.

Originally Posted by Danny

No; to say that it is not a human effort is the same as when a Calvinist says that He was saved purely by the grace of God having replaced his heart of stone with a heart of flesh. As I said before, you can no more appeal to Total Depravity to denounce Postmillenialism than you can to denounce the very principle of regeneration and salvation.

(Answer) I disagree

Originally Posted by Danny

Postmillenialism operates under the belief that the Great Tribulation occured about 1,930 years ago.

(Answer) Clearly unbiblical


Thjodmar

[Travis]

Originally Posted by thjodmar

(Answer) This is clearly against Biblical teaching since it says in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling Away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.

The falling away will be a GREAT APOSTASY in the Church of God immediately before the return of Christ. There will be Remnant of Gods people before the Millenial.

You are arguing against something of which you are ignorant. Postmillennialism teaches that the Great Commission will be fulfilled, there will be a great period of prosperity and Christian dominance upon the earth, and then there will be a great apostasy and Christ will return upon the earth in judgment.

Originally Posted by thjodmar

One answer is for sure. The bible teaches that CHRIST will REIGN on THE EARTH for 1 thousand years. and that HE will establish HIS Kingdom on the Earth.. Not through the Great Commission

Read the great commission; it states that He is with us, and it is for this reason that we will be able to fulfill it.

I've posted this before, but I will do so in order to demonstrate but a minute fraction of the vast Scriptural support for postmillennialism:

Postmillennialism teaches that Christ established His Kingdom during His earthly ministry (Matthew 12:28; c.f., Matthew 4:24; Matthew 8:16; Mark 3:22; Luke 4:41), and that Christ will return after His millennial reign (Christ does not reign physically on earth during that millennium). We are currently in the millennial reign of Christ (the “thousand years” is not literal but is rather a way of saying “a very long time,” c.f., Psalm 50:10). When He ascended into heaven, He was glorified and now reigns as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords—having worldwide dominion (Daniel 7:13-14). During this reign of Christ, the Church will progressively win out history through the power of Christ (Psalm 110:1; Acts 2:34-36; Hebrews 10:12-14), and the Great Commission will be fulfilled because Christ has all authority and is with us as we go about the task (Matthew 28:18-20). The world will ultimately be predominately Christian (Jeremiah 3:16-17; 31:31-34), and there will be days of peace and prosperity (Amos 9:11-15; Micah 4:1-3; 5:2-4; 7:16-17; Habakkuk 2:14-20; Haggai 2:7ff; Zechariah 9:9-10; Malachi 1:11; 3:1-12). Satan will then be released for a short period, during which there will be a great apostasy (Rev. 20:7-8), and Christ will return on the world in judgment.

Originally Posted by thjodmar

Clearly unbiblical

On the contrary, it's clearly unbiblical to believe that it will occur so long after that period in which it was written, since Christ stated that that generation would not pass away before it came to pass (in the Olivet discourse).

[Travis]

Originally Posted by thjodmar

The use of the death penalty would be greatly expanded, when the Hebrew Scriptures' laws are reapplied. People will be executed for adultery, blasphemy, heresy, idolatry, prostitution, evil sorcery, etc.



It sure does sound like the Christian version of the Taliban to me..
A very dangerous and Heretical teaching..

Matthew 5:17-20. C.f., Psalm 2; Romans 13:4.

[psalm63adam]

Split off from the Database Chatter.

I performed my first moderator duty.

[+Donny]

Congratulations on your position as moderator over theology. Just don't use it against me and I'll be fine.

As far as dominion theology, theonomy, etc. being heretical, the poster who had this (false) accusation has never bothered to prove, from the historic creeds or the anathema of Paul in Galatians, that this is, in fact, heresy. Such false accusations breed harmful schisms in the body of Christ and bring about enmity among the children of God, where there should be fellowship, charity, and love. thjodmar, since you made the accusation publicly, I am requesting that you publicly recant of it and apologize or that you prove your point. Heresy is not a light charge.