[Qingu]

I happened to be flipping through my Bible and came accross this passage. I've highlighted the parts that I think are particularly gruesome, or weirdly poetic, or both.

But if you will not obey the LORD your God by diligently observing all his commandments and decrees, which I am commanding you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you:
Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb, the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock.
Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
The LORD will send upon you disaster, panic, and frustration in everything you attempt to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me.
The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until it has consumed you off the land that you are entering to possess.
The LORD will afflict you with consumption, fever, inflammation, with fiery heat and drought, and with blight and mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish.
The sky over your head shall be bronze, and the earth under you iron.
The LORD will change the rain of your land into powder, and only dust shall come down upon you from the sky until you are destroyed.
The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out against them one way and flee before them seven ways.
You shall become an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.
Your corpses shall be food for every bird of the air and animal of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away.
The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt, with ulcers, scurvy, and itch, of which you cannot be healed.
The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness, and confusion of mind; you shall grope about at noon as blind people grope in darkness, but you shall be unable to find your way; and you shall be continually abused and robbed, without anyone to help.
You shall become engaged to a woman, but another man shall lie with her.
You shall build a house, but not live in it.
You shall plant a vineyard, but not enjoy its fruit.
Your ox shall be butchered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it.
Your donkey shall be stolen in front of you, and shall not be restored to you.
Your sheep shall be given to your enemies, without anyone to help you.
Your sons and daughters shall be given to another people, while you look on; you will strain your eyes looking for them all day but be powerless to do anything.
A people whom you do not know shall eat up the fruit of your ground and of all your labors; you shall be continually abused and crushed, and driven mad by the sight that your eyes shall see.
The LORD will strike you on the knees and on the legs with grievous boils of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head.
The LORD will bring you, and the king whom you set over you, to a nation that neither you nor your ancestors have known, where you shall serve other gods, of wood and stone.
You shall become an object of horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the LORD will lead you.
You shall carry much seed into the field but shall gather little in, for the locust shall consume it.
You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink the wine nor gather the grapes, for the worm shall eat them.
You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil, for your olives shall drop off.
You shall have sons and daughters, but they shall not remain yours, for they shall go into captivity.
All your trees and the fruit of your ground the cicada shall take over.
Aliens residing among you shall ascend above you higher and higher, while you shall descend lower and lower.
They shall lend to you but you shall not lend to them; they shall be the head and you shall be the tail.

All these curses shall come upon you, pursuing and overtaking you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God, by observing the commandments and the decrees that he commanded you.
They shall be among you and your descendants as a sign and a portent forever.
Because you did not serve the LORD your God joyfully and with gladness of heart for the abundance of everything, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything.
He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.
The LORD will bring a nation from far away, from the end of the earth, to swoop down on you like an eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand, a grim-faced nation showing no respect to the old or favor to the young.
It shall consume the fruit of your livestock and the fruit of your ground until you are destroyed, leaving you neither grain, wine, and oil, nor the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock, until it has made you perish.
It shall besiege you in all your towns until your high and fortified walls, in which you trusted, come down throughout your land; it shall besiege you in all your towns throughout the land that the LORD your God has given you.
In the desperate straits to which the enemy siege reduces you, you will eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your own sons and daughters whom the LORD your God has given you.
Even the most refined and gentle of men among you will begrudge food to his own brother, to the wife whom he embraces, and to the last of his remaining children, giving to none of them any of the flesh of his children whom he is eating, because nothing else remains to him, in the desperate straits to which the enemy siege will reduce you in all your towns.
She who is the most refined and gentle among you, so gentle and refined that she does not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground, will begrudge food to the husband whom she embraces, to her own son, and to her own daughter, begrudging even the afterbirth that comes out from between her thighs, and the children that she bears, because she is eating them in secret for lack of anything else, in the desperate straits to which the enemy siege will reduce you in your towns.

If you do not diligently observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, fearing this glorious and awesome name, the LORD your God, then the LORD will overwhelm both you and your offspring with severe and lasting afflictions and grievous and lasting maladies.
He will bring back upon you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were in dread, and they shall cling to you.
Every other malady and affliction, even though not recorded in the book of this law, the LORD will inflict on you until you are destroyed.
Although once you were as numerous as the stars in heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God.
And just as the LORD took delight in making you prosperous and numerous, so the LORD will take delight in bringing you to ruin and destruction; you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to possess.
The LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other; and there you shall serve other gods, of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known.
Among those nations you shall find no ease, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and a languishing spirit.
Your life shall hang in doubt before you; night and day you shall be in dread, with no assurance of your life.
In the morning you shall say, "If only it were evening!" and at evening you shall say, "If only it were morning!" --because of the dread that your heart shall feel and the sights that your eyes shall see.
The LORD will bring you back in ships to Egypt, by a route that I promised you would never see again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.

Whew.

So is this why the Holocaust happened?

Or is this talking about an ancient race of blacks, which would explain slavery...?

Basically, I am asking how you justify believing this passage to be the word of a perfectly moral God.

[Gracie Love]

Originally Posted by Qingu

I happened to be flipping through my Bible and came accross this passage. I've highlighted the parts that I think are particularly gruesome, or weirdly poetic, or both.

But if you will not obey the LORD your God by diligently observing all his commandments and decrees, which I am commanding you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you:
Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb, the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock.
Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
The LORD will send upon you disaster, panic, and frustration in everything you attempt to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me.
The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until it has consumed you off the land that you are entering to possess.
The LORD will afflict you with consumption, fever, inflammation, with fiery heat and drought, and with blight and mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish.
The sky over your head shall be bronze, and the earth under you iron.
The LORD will change the rain of your land into powder, and only dust shall come down upon you from the sky until you are destroyed.
The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out against them one way and flee before them seven ways.
You shall become an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.
Your corpses shall be food for every bird of the air and animal of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away.
The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt, with ulcers, scurvy, and itch, of which you cannot be healed.
The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness, and confusion of mind; you shall grope about at noon as blind people grope in darkness, but you shall be unable to find your way; and you shall be continually abused and robbed, without anyone to help.
You shall become engaged to a woman, but another man shall lie with her.
You shall build a house, but not live in it.
You shall plant a vineyard, but not enjoy its fruit.
Your ox shall be butchered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it.
Your donkey shall be stolen in front of you, and shall not be restored to you.
Your sheep shall be given to your enemies, without anyone to help you.
Your sons and daughters shall be given to another people, while you look on; you will strain your eyes looking for them all day but be powerless to do anything.
A people whom you do not know shall eat up the fruit of your ground and of all your labors; you shall be continually abused and crushed, and driven mad by the sight that your eyes shall see.
The LORD will strike you on the knees and on the legs with grievous boils of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head.
The LORD will bring you, and the king whom you set over you, to a nation that neither you nor your ancestors have known, where you shall serve other gods, of wood and stone.
You shall become an object of horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the LORD will lead you.
You shall carry much seed into the field but shall gather little in, for the locust shall consume it.
You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink the wine nor gather the grapes, for the worm shall eat them.
You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil, for your olives shall drop off.
You shall have sons and daughters, but they shall not remain yours, for they shall go into captivity.
All your trees and the fruit of your ground the cicada shall take over.
Aliens residing among you shall ascend above you higher and higher, while you shall descend lower and lower.
They shall lend to you but you shall not lend to them; they shall be the head and you shall be the tail.

All these curses shall come upon you, pursuing and overtaking you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God, by observing the commandments and the decrees that he commanded you.
They shall be among you and your descendants as a sign and a portent forever.
Because you did not serve the LORD your God joyfully and with gladness of heart for the abundance of everything, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything.
He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.
The LORD will bring a nation from far away, from the end of the earth, to swoop down on you like an eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand, a grim-faced nation showing no respect to the old or favor to the young.
It shall consume the fruit of your livestock and the fruit of your ground until you are destroyed, leaving you neither grain, wine, and oil, nor the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock, until it has made you perish.
It shall besiege you in all your towns until your high and fortified walls, in which you trusted, come down throughout your land; it shall besiege you in all your towns throughout the land that the LORD your God has given you.
In the desperate straits to which the enemy siege reduces you, you will eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your own sons and daughters whom the LORD your God has given you.
Even the most refined and gentle of men among you will begrudge food to his own brother, to the wife whom he embraces, and to the last of his remaining children, giving to none of them any of the flesh of his children whom he is eating, because nothing else remains to him, in the desperate straits to which the enemy siege will reduce you in all your towns.
She who is the most refined and gentle among you, so gentle and refined that she does not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground, will begrudge food to the husband whom she embraces, to her own son, and to her own daughter, begrudging even the afterbirth that comes out from between her thighs, and the children that she bears, because she is eating them in secret for lack of anything else, in the desperate straits to which the enemy siege will reduce you in your towns.

If you do not diligently observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, fearing this glorious and awesome name, the LORD your God, then the LORD will overwhelm both you and your offspring with severe and lasting afflictions and grievous and lasting maladies.
He will bring back upon you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were in dread, and they shall cling to you.
Every other malady and affliction, even though not recorded in the book of this law, the LORD will inflict on you until you are destroyed.
Although once you were as numerous as the stars in heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God.
And just as the LORD took delight in making you prosperous and numerous, so the LORD will take delight in bringing you to ruin and destruction; you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to possess.
The LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other; and there you shall serve other gods, of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known.
Among those nations you shall find no ease, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and a languishing spirit.
Your life shall hang in doubt before you; night and day you shall be in dread, with no assurance of your life.
In the morning you shall say, "If only it were evening!" and at evening you shall say, "If only it were morning!" --because of the dread that your heart shall feel and the sights that your eyes shall see.
The LORD will bring you back in ships to Egypt, by a route that I promised you would never see again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.

Whew.

So is this why the Holocaust happened?

Or is this talking about an ancient race of blacks, which would explain slavery...?

Basically, I am asking how you justify believing this passage to be the word of a perfectly moral God.

I think you are just looking for a fight. But to answer at least to the best of my knowledge which I admit is limited. I don't think that either of these happened because of this chapter in the Bible. On Africans were trading slaves long before this verse. The Isrealites were slaves to THe Eygptians. And the Holocaust that is just a stretch. The promise here has been fulfilled when Jerusalem fell to Babylon. Not long after Solomen was king.

[Insane Drummer]

"Or is this talking about an ancient race of blacks, which would explain slavery...?"

"The LORD will bring you back in ships to Egypt, by a route that I promised you would never see again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer."

How many blacks went to Egypt to OFFER themselves as slaves?

"Basically, I am asking how you justify believing this passage to be the word of a perfectly moral God."

"But if you will not obey the LORD your God by diligently observing all his commandments and decrees, which I am commanding you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you:"

Thats my justifcation. It is not God being immoral, He had the right to completely destroy this nation, but He punished them for their own good, but with punishment He brings mercy and reconciliation. Also God cannot be immoral, because all morality hinges upon God and His chacter (or so I believe).


Earlier in this passage we note,

"1 "Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the Lord your God: 3 Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country. 4 Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks. 5 Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 6 Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out. 7 "The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways. 8 The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you. 9 The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, just as He has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways. 10 Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you. 11 And the Lord will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give you. 12 The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them. 14 So you shall not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right or the left, to go after other gods to serve them."

Any punishment that befell Israel cannot be used to say God is not moral, but that Israel reject the God that promised all this to the.

[Qingu]

So you think it applies to all of Israel and is not applicable to individual people trying to follow the law....

But how do you account for the fact that Israel did not follow all the commandments? This is well-attested historically and implied in the New Testament. This means that these punishments MUST have befell (or will befall) Israel at some point, or God would be lying.

And yes, I am obviously picking a fight. This passage is abhorent to me and it makes no sense logically, since none of these things appear to have happened. I'm curious to see how Christians reconcile this passage..

P.S. ... if you think that everything God does is moral, you should take a look at my thread on the Apologetics page and tell me what you think.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by Qingu

So you think it applies to all of Israel and is not applicable to individual people trying to follow the law....

But how do you account for the fact that Israel did not follow all the commandments? This is well-attested historically and implied in the New Testament. This means that these punishments MUST have befell (or will befall) Israel at some point, or God would be lying.

And yes, I am obviously picking a fight. This passage is abhorent to me and it makes no sense logically, since none of these things appear to have happened. I'm curious to see how Christians reconcile this passage..

P.S. ... if you think that everything God does is moral, you should take a look at my thread on the Apologetics page and tell me what you think.

Man's wisdom is as foolishness to God... and your " righteousness/morality" is as filthy rags..... doesn't matter if you like it or not.. its the way it is. God is a jealous God, He makes no apology for that, nor should He. Man is given the choice to accept or reject.... it is man's morality that is in question , not God's.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Are you meaning to say that Israel hasn't suffered these things??? I think you need a history lesson.

[psalm63adam]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Basically, I am asking how you justify believing this passage to be the word of a perfectly moral God.

Job 40:6 - 41:34

6Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
7"Dress for action[1] like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
8Will you even put me in the wrong?
Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?
9Have you an arm like God,
and can you thunder with a voice like his?
10"Adorn yourself with majesty and dignity;
clothe yourself with glory and splendor.
11Pour out the overflowings of your anger,
and look on everyone who is proud and abase him.
12Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low
and tread down the wicked where they stand.
13Hide them all in the dust together;
bind their faces in the world below.[2]
14Then will I also acknowledge to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15"Behold, Behemoth,[3]
which I made as I made you;
he eats grass like an ox.
16Behold, his strength in his loins,
and his power in the muscles of his belly.
17He makes his tail stiff like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are knit together.
18His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like bars of iron.
19"He is the first of the works[4] of God;
let him who made him bring near his sword!
20For the mountains yield food for him
where all the wild beasts play.
21Under the lotus plants he lies,
in the shelter of the reeds and in the marsh.
22For his shade the lotus trees cover him;
the willows of the brook surround him.
23Behold, if the river is turbulent he is not frightened;
he is confident though Jordan rushes against his mouth.
24Can one take him by his eyes,[5]
or pierce his nose with a snare?

Job 41

1[1] "Can you draw out Leviathan[2] with a fishhook
or press down his tongue with a cord?
2Can you put a rope in his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3Will he make many pleas to you?
Will he speak to you soft words?
4Will he make a covenant with you
to take him for your servant forever?
5Will you play with him as with a bird,
or will you put him on a leash for your girls?
6Will traders bargain over him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7Can you fill his skin with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
8Lay your hands on him;
remember the battle--you will not do it again!
9[3] Behold, the hope of a man is false;
he is laid low even at the sight of him.
10No one is so fierce that he dares to stir him up.
Who then is he who can stand before me?
11Who has first given to me, that I should repay him?
Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12"I will not keep silence concerning his limbs,
or his mighty strength, or his goodly frame.
13Who can strip off his outer garment?
Who would come near him with a bridle?
14Who can open the doors of his face?
Around his teeth is terror.
15His back is made of[4] rows of shields,
shut up closely as with a seal.
16One is so near to another
that no air can come between them.
17They are joined one to another;
they clasp each other and cannot be separated.
18His sneezings flash forth light,
and his eyes are like the eyelids of the dawn.
19Out of his mouth go flaming torches;
sparks of fire leap forth.
20Out of his nostrils comes forth smoke,
as from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
21His breath kindles coals,
and a flame comes forth from his mouth.
22In his neck abides strength,
and terror dances before him.
23The folds of his flesh stick together,
firmly cast on him and immovable.
24His heart is hard as a stone,
hard as the lower millstone.
25When he raises himself up the mighty[5] are afraid;
at the crashing they are beside themselves.
26Though the sword reaches him, it does not avail,
nor the spear, the dart, or the javelin.
27He counts iron as straw,
and bronze as rotten wood.
28The arrow cannot make him flee;
for him sling stones are turned to stubble.
29Clubs are counted as stubble;
he laughs at the rattle of javelins.
30His underparts are like sharp potsherds;
he spreads himself like a threshing sledge on the mire.
31He makes the deep boil like a pot;
he makes the sea like a pot of ointment.
32Behind him he leaves a shining wake;
one would think the deep to be white-haired.
33On earth there is not his like,
a creature without fear.
34He sees everything that is high;
he is king over all the sons of pride."

[sgary]

Qingu said. "I've highlighted the parts"

I'am glad to know your "flipping" into God's word. It's like any other good book, you got to be able to follow the subject, (you seem to do that very well) and if you have a lexicon (dictionary) and concordance for original languages, your well on your way. Chapter & verse is the best way to get the "meat" God wants us to have. I wont fight, but talk with you. sgary

[ChrisHarbison]

Not that I'm in anyways interested in discussing theology with an athiest, but I would ask one question.

Originally Posted by Qingu

Basically, I am asking how you justify believing this passage to be the word of a perfectly moral God.

What set of pre-existing moral values is God required to adhere to? This question presupposes just that and it doesn't exist. Morality and goodness are what God declares them to be.

[Scott]

Perfect morality would surely indicate punishment for wrongdoing.

[Qingu]

I don't think there's anything moral about making someone eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, or the afterbirth of botched pregnancies, just because they don't adhere to all your archaic and nearly impossible-to-obey laws ... or, as the passage describes, make their unborn generations suffer those horrible tortures.

The crazy thing is, I have this theory that none of you think these things are moral either! You claim to believe that God is the source of morality; but if that were true then you would be all about torturing the unbelievers, as Yahweh "takes delight" in doing.

By the way, citing Job is basically saying "God isn't moral, he's just supremely powerful and that's why we have to listen to him." He avoids Job's question as to "why bad things happen to good people" in that passage, in case you hadn't noticed.

[Insane Drummer]

"but if that were true then you would be all about torturing the unbelievers, as Yahweh "takes delight" in doing."

Tell me where we are commanded to do this, you keep bringing this nonsense up. Yes God is moral, but we are not God we have no right to do the things He does, it is moral for God to punish unbelieving nations, it would be wrong for us to. Unless mandated by God.

Ezekial 33:11"Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'"

[Qingu]

Tell me where we are commanded to do this, you keep bringing this nonsense up. Yes God is moral, but we are not God we have no right to do the things He does, it is moral for God to punish unbelieving nations, it would be wrong for us to. Unless mandated by God.

This is claiming that God does not have to follow the morals he prescribes for us to follow. This is one step away from claiming God is not moral himself. After all, there can only be one definition of moral, not two. If the definition only applies to humans, what do you call an entity who clearly does not abide by the given definition of moral? (Personally, I would call God immoral in a second -- he is a sadist who created us to torture us in hell, salvation from his torture is only achieved by utterly submitting to his ultimate will, if we even have a choice at all... by any individual's moral standard, if God were a human, he would not be a moral person).

If the "moral standard" of Christianity is not applicable to humans, but ultimately to God, then your argument refutes itself. In this situation our "human morals" are not moral, but simply the arbitrary whims of the deity; right and wrong only affect him.

You are claiming God is moral and you are claiming that it is morally wrong to emulate God's morality ... this is not reconcilable with a belief in a single "ultimate" morality.

Again, don't mistake me -- I'm glad you are not claiming that it is good, from a human perspective, to make people eat the flesh of their sons and daughters and sell them into slavery.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by Qingu

I don't think there's anything moral about making someone eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, or the afterbirth of botched pregnancies, just because they don't adhere to all your archaic and nearly impossible-to-obey laws ... or, as the passage describes, make their unborn generations suffer those horrible tortures.

The crazy thing is, I have this theory that none of you think these things are moral either! You claim to believe that God is the source of morality; but if that were true then you would be all about torturing the unbelievers, as Yahweh "takes delight" in doing.

By the way, citing Job is basically saying "God isn't moral, he's just supremely powerful and that's why we have to listen to him." He avoids Job's question as to "why bad things happen to good people" in that passage, in case you hadn't noticed.

Because you do not believe , you cannot understand. We have tried to set you straight , but you refuse to listen.

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you

Luke 6 27 "But I ( Jesus ) say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. 32 But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

Love, bless, pray for , give to , turn the other cheek, do good, be merciful.... doesn't sound like we are to " torture the unbelievers"

As to Job

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2 Corinthians 4:8-18 8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; 10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by Qingu

(Personally, I would call God immoral in a second -- he is a sadist who created us to torture us in hell, salvation from his torture is only achieved by utterly submitting to his ultimate will, if we even have a choice at all... by any individual's moral standard, if God were a human, he would not be a moral person).

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. He created us for His pleasure, not to torture us.

Luke 11:9-10, 13 (These are Jesus's words) 9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened ..... 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance. Doesn't sound so bad to me!!

John 14:1-3 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. I will have a mansion in " my Father's house". Once again, it doesn't sound so bad to me... if He created me to torture me, then why does He prepare a mansion for me????

Maybe by YOUR individual standard... but don't speak for me please. Jesus DID become human and He was 100% moral.