[Qingu]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. He created us for His pleasure, not to torture us.

Many people, particularly those with lots of power, take pleasure from torturing their subjects. This passage is nothing more than an exhortation to honor a being who is more powerful than you. It has nothing to do with God's morality; it has everything to do with his authority. A ruler is not necessarily a moral ruler.

Luke 11:9-10, 13 (These are Jesus's words) 9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened ..... 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Again, this is not a claim by the Bible that God is good, merely that he is powerful since he can reward you for your supplication. Again, the analogy of an immoral king who rewards his subjects that please him and torture the ones that make him mad, is apt.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance. Doesn't sound so bad to me!!

I agree. If only Yahweh were meek, temperate, loving, peaceful and gentle. Instead the God of the Old Testament is all-powerful, blustering, jealous, hateful, and prone to genocidal destruction, mass killing and gruesome torture. (Of course you can argue that God encompasses all descriptive qualities since he is infinite....)

John 14:1-3 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. I will have a mansion in " my Father's house". Once again, it doesn't sound so bad to me... if He created me to torture me, then why does He prepare a mansion for me????

For the same reason Louis the Sun King of France prepared Versailles palace for all the nobles who sucked up to him. Versailles was a beautiful overwrought palace, but the Sun King only let the nobles in there as a way to exert his power and authority over them. Carrots and sticks are not necessarily moral, they are just a means to power; and oftentimes exercise of power is incredibly IMMORAL (as is the case of most kings, emperors, and, I would argue, Yahweh himself).

Maybe by YOUR individual standard... but don't speak for me please. Jesus DID become human and He was 100% moral.

Since you limit your conception of a moral God to a personal interpretation of God as a loving redeemer, culled only from select New Testament passages and completely oblivious to the many contradictory passages from the Old Testament -- I hold by my statement, that by your own moral standards, Yahweh of the Old Testament is a total scumbag.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Since you limit your conception of a moral God to a personal interpretation of God as a loving redeemer, culled only from select New Testament passages and completely oblivious to the many contradictory passages from the Old Testament -- I hold by my statement, that by your own moral standards, Yahweh of the Old Testament is a total scumbag.

Do you believe those who do wrong should be " punished"? For exampe, if a person murders, should they, at the very least, go to jail??

Do you believe a child should obey their parents ( assuming their parents have their best interests in mind )? And if you do, should they be " punished" if they don't obey??

Do you believe we should stop children from running it the road since we know better than them the dangers it poses?

Do you believe those who rebel against proper authority and cause others to do the same, should be dealt with?

Do you believe those who are taught the truth and choose to believe a lie are wise ? or are the foolish?

Should we " reap what we sow"?

[Amanda]

Originally Posted by Qingu

I agree. If only Yahweh were meek, temperate, loving, peaceful and gentle. Instead the God of the Old Testament is all-powerful, blustering, jealous, hateful, and prone to genocidal destruction, mass killing and gruesome torture.

False assumption.

Old Testament: "And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD , the LORD , the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation" (Exodus 34:6-7).

"Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you!" (Isaiah 49:15).



What you don't seem to understand that is that God is not being vengeful, but just; if He is the sovereign of the universe (which, being God, He naturally is), He has the right to make the rules. He doesn't answer to us. God is not SAFE. He is not predictable. But He is good. I know that doesn't make ANY sense to you, but the reason He punishes Israel is similar to the reason parents discipline their kids, if you can grasp that illustration.

However, I understand that nothing I will say will change your mind.

[Qingu]

KFBs's Mom -- please see my thread "On morals and Christianity" in apologetics. I believe you'll find your answer there.

Originally Posted by Amanda

False assumption.

Oi. Keep in mind when you cry "false assumption," I can, by the same logic (or lack thereof) cry "false assumption" to anything and everything you say. I'm not interested in metaphysics here; we're talking about language and descriptions of the qualities of God. We both can read, and we both can interpret what we read. Either everything we both say is therefore a false assumption, or we can engage each other in interpreting the text before us.

What you don't seem to understand that is that God is not being vengeful, but just; if He is the sovereign of the universe (which, being God, He naturally is), He has the right to make the rules. He doesn't answer to us. God is not SAFE. He is not predictable. But He is good. I know that doesn't make ANY sense to you,

It doesn't make sense to me, although I can understand why you think it makes sense. You are again equating the ability to enforce rules with justice and morality. It is abundantly clear that Yahweh is all-powerful and that, if we know what's good for us, we had better obey him. Assigning any notion of "morality" to this purely amoral political situation is a fallacy, however.

but the reason He punishes Israel is similar to the reason parents discipline their kids, if you can grasp that illustration.

Have you ever heard of the saying "Do as I say, not as I do?" This is exactly the kind of "parenting" God practices. It is important to note this, because "Do as I say, not as I do" means that the ruler/parent does not have to abide by his own prescribed morality. You cannot account for the fact that we humans are not allowed to act like God -- we are not allowed to brutally torture those who reject God and their children's children as well (stoning them to death is moral but torture apparently is not).

It certainly seems from the way that you apologize that morality is not applicable to God, and neither is logic or consistency. You didn't even try to reconcile his "meek and loving" description with his "vengeful and hateful" description ... you just said he is not safe, not a tame lion, I gather, doesn't answer to us -- which actually means "doesn't answer to our morality." But nevertheless he is good? If the only definition of morality comes from God, and God does not abide by that definition, how is it possible to say he is good? A more accurate description would be "capricious."

However, I understand that nothing I will say will change your mind.

That is not true! The advantage of being a skeptic is that I can always change my mind if someone convinces me, since none of my beliefs are rooted in stone. You simply haven't convinced me yet. (To be fair, I've heard and considered the arguments you've made before, so I already have reasons for rejecting them).

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by Qingu

KFBs's Mom -- please see my thread "On morals and Christianity" in apologetics. I believe you'll find your answer there.

Have you ever heard of the saying "Do as I say, not as I do?" This is exactly the kind of "parenting" God practices. It is important to note this, because "Do as I say, not as I do" means that the ruler/parent does not have to abide by his own prescribed morality. You cannot account for the fact that we humans are not allowed to act like God -- we are not allowed to brutally torture those who reject God and their children's children as well (stoning them to death is moral but torture apparently is not).

That is not true! The advantage of being a skeptic is that I can always change my mind if someone convinces me, since none of my beliefs are rooted in stone. You simply haven't convinced me yet. (To be fair, I've heard and considered the arguments you've made before, so I already have reasons for rejecting them).

I have been reading the other thread. Our actions have consequences. When there are rules, we can follow them or we can break them. If we follow them , then things are good... if we break them, then we suffer the consequences.

You are wrong in the type parenting you say God does. Jesus healed the sick, He raised the dead, He fed the hungry, He had compassion on those others rejected, etc. If we follow His example the world will be a wonderful place. Jesus didn't just say to do these things, He did them.


Can you give me references in the Bible that you feel show God commands anyone to be " brutally tortured" ? Ordering someone killed is not torturing them.

Who do you think did the killing of those God commanded to be killed? Man did. So yes, man is allowed to carry out the punishment set by God. Does God command us today to avenge Him on whole nations... No. Of course we humans are not allowed to act like God IN EVERY WAY. My children are not allowed to act like me.... in other words, they couldn't set their bed time, they couldn't make the rules of the house, they couldn't decide if something was allowed or not, they couldn't decide how they would be punished for deliberate disobedience, etc.

I don't know about anyone else on CGR, but it is not my intention to " convince you" of anything. My intention is to show you truth. What you do with that truth is totally up to you.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

I have been reading the other thread. Our actions have consequences. When there are rules, we can follow them or we can break them. If we follow them , then things are good... if we break them, then we suffer the consequences.

...this has nothing to do with morality. The rules in this case are not intrinsically right. We follow them out of fear of punishment, like we listen to someone threatening to shoot us in the head.

You are wrong in the type parenting you say God does. Jesus healed the sick, He raised the dead, He fed the hungry, He had compassion on those others rejected, etc. If we follow His example the world will be a wonderful place. Jesus didn't just say to do these things, He did them.

He also made those people Jesus healed become sick. He also infected people (in your cosmology, before Jesus entered the scene) with boils, ulcers, festering wounds, made women eat their afterbirth ... Jesus and Yahweh are supposed to be the same person -- how do we know which example to follow? I would like to be more like Jesus too, but I don't think I want to follow Yahweh's "moral" example.

Can you give me references in the Bible that you feel show God commands anyone to be " brutally tortured" ?

He doesn't command people to torture people. God himself tortures people. See above passages. He will "take delight in ruining and destroying you."

Who do you think did the killing of those God commanded to be killed? Man did.

"I vas just follwing orders!"

So yes, man is allowed to carry out the punishment set by God. Does God command us today to avenge Him on whole nations... No. Of course we humans are not allowed to act like God IN EVERY WAY. My children are not allowed to act like me.... in other words, they couldn't set their bed time, they couldn't make the rules of the house, they couldn't decide if something was allowed or not, they couldn't decide how they would be punished for deliberate disobedience, etc.

You can either have one ultimate morality or no ultimate moralities. You are claiming that man only has access to a partial morality, since we can't be moral (act like God) in every way. Also, you fail to account for how acting out of fear of punishment is moral.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by Qingu

...this has nothing to do with morality. The rules in this case are not intrinsically right. We follow them out of fear of punishment, like we listen to someone threatening to shoot us in the head.

You can either have one ultimate morality or no ultimate moralities. You are claiming that man only has access to a partial morality, since we can't be moral (act like God) in every way. Also, you fail to account for how acting out of fear of punishment is moral.

Perhaps when I was first saved I " acted out of fear of punishment" in some sense. I don't any more, nor have I for a very long time. I have learned more about God, and as I have, I act out of the awesome amazement that God loves me ( when I even have trouble doing that at times ).

Fear of punishment is not necessarily a bad thing, nor is it immoral. Its not a bad thing that children are safe ( don't run in the road, don't stick their finger in the socket, etc ) when they are little and can not understand because they " act out of fear" of mommy punishing them. Before we understand something, if it is dangerous to us, it is good to be afraid of it, this keeps us safe. It would be " immoral" in my opinion if God didn't tell us what lies ahead and what the consequences will be if we choose to do the wrong thing. If that makes me afraid, good!! Maybe then I will be smart enough to learn to not do that which would cause me great harm.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by Qingu

He doesn't command people to torture people. God himself tortures people. See above passages. He will "take delight in ruining and destroying you."

You were already given this verse but I will post it again.


Ezekial 33:11"Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'"

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

You were already given this verse but I will post it again.


Ezekial 33:11"Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'"

If this is not a blatant Scriptural contradiction, as I believe it is, then one way you can reconcile the two verses is by saying that God doesn't like to kill people but he does like to ruin and destroy people -- implicitly, torturing them but not killing them -- and therefore the Bible does not contradict itself.