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Unread 08-14-2004, 08:46 AM   #16
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That's great advice, Tom. I like 'noodling' and trying to figure out simple melodies, like 'Happy Birthday' or 'Jingle Bells' or anything.

Yes, Brad Paisley is a serious player. Vince Gill is up there too, but maybe not quite as good as Brad. Marty Stuart's not bad either. Of course, like El Cabong said, there are tons of great players in the band that we never hear about.

Some of the 'old school' guys were great players, too. Roy Clark, Jerry Reed and Glenn Campbell are all very good guitarists.

What really gets me about country music is when the they try to make it look like the front guy's playing the solo. I remember one of those 'CMT Crossroads' shows with ZZTop and Brooks & Dunn. Billy Gibbons was wailing away on 'La Grange' and the camera is showing Brooks or Dunn (the one with the hat) down on one knee making a rock-n-roll grimace while strumming an open G chord!

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Unread 08-14-2004, 09:44 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el cabong
I agree with you on this, and I guess my only reason for not getting FBL first is that I'm somewhat bull-headed and like to figure things out for myself.
Alrighty then. Well, good luck because I've known people who have played from 15 to 30 years, were fairly to well accomplished, and didn't know a lot of the stuff in FBL, and to them it was quite a revelation. Understand, it is a lot more than just knowing the five pentatonic scales you often learn when getting guitar lessions.

BTW, I say "often" rather loosely, since I've seen different versions of those pentatonic scales in different teaching contexts, so they are by no mean uniformly taught, or universally regarded. About the only one that stays consistant is the G FORM of the pentatonic scale, and perhaps a few others are more perennial than not, but I've seen some whacky versions, naming conventions, and descriptions of them, so it's not like knowing those will pretty much tell you everything (or even anything) about the CAGED System.
For instance, Forever His made an interesting insight, but I would slightly challenge it or ask for refinement on the above point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by He
My Fretboard Logic SE just arrived today and after spending only an hour or so in it I have something to point out. On page 15 you have what they call the caged system. Well the caged system is what I have learned to call the 5 position's of the pentatonic scale... so the good news is that these are the very same position's that you have likely already learned.
Well, this is of course assuming that you've learned the Pentatonic scales in as organized and integrated a fashion as it would require to make the intuitive jump from the pentatonic scales being lined up and being in CAGED sequence, and actually intuitively grasping the gestalt of the CAGED System with it's incumbant distinctions.

Most people that I encounter haven't learned that, nor es even if they do know more than one pentatonic scale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by el cabong
And also the fact that a lot of people seeem to be hitting FBL up a lot lately, meaning that maybe it will produce a lot of good players, but maybe I guess I would rather be a little different. Hah! Man thats pretty bad right there. Maybe my strong sense of independence has altered my ability to learn the easy way!
Okay, honestly, I have absolutely no idea what any of that means. Exactly how are you being a little different and what does that have to do with the value and benefit of learning? If self-taught is such a virtue and ideal, then why not opt for a self-taught Neuro-Surgeon who eschewed such conformist conventions as higher education and medical training? Of course, this reminds me of an interesting quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Vaughan
If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than a conformist, it's another nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standard of nonconformity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by el cabong
Thanks for the advice, and input on my playing(sorry Chesh couldn't help it, no hard feelings?) maybe tomorow I'll get around to trying another go at it.
Well, no, no hard feelings, but who ever said I set out to answer your specific question about playing? I was responding to your comments on FBL, which, considering you made them in this thread, are fair game and on topic.



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Unread 08-14-2004, 11:28 AM   #18
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Chesh Wrote:

Well, this is of course assuming that you've learned the Pentatonic scales in as organized and integrated a fashion as it would require to make the intuitive jump from the pentatonic scales being lined up and being in CAGED sequence, and actually intuitively grasping the gestalt of the CAGED System with it's incumbant distinctions.

Most people that I encounter haven't learned that, nor es even if they do know more than one pentatonic scale.



I have been using the "basic" caged system without even knowing it. Page 15 is exactly note for note what I have learned... Only difference is that I started with the "G" position as the foundation and moved up and down the neck going through each position, viewing them as the pentatonic scale... not the caged system. But they are the same thing. How the chords fit in each position took a lot longer to figure out and I sure wished that I had their diagram a year ago.

Now Major Tom made a statement that I happen to agree with but feel that it needs to be qualified... the statement about not just playing scales etc. but just start playing. I do agree however that is what I did many years ago and even though I "memorized" a few songs I had no understanding of what I was really doing. By learning the pentatonic scales until they have become second nature I now have a new freedom that I do not know how I could achieve any other way. The guitar neck now makes a lot more sense and I understand how and where each chord fits into the picture. Bottom line... I now have the "freedom" to actually sit down and listen to a piece of music and play it.

So to keep it balanced, please continue to listen and play, that's important... and fun but also it is wise to learn (argh....) scales as well, and I would suggest that if you learn a scale from the first all the way up to the twelfth fret that it will pay off... especially if it is the pentatonic scale ( also know as the "caged" )

I really hope that I don't sound like I'm overly zealous in pushing this... it is that just this summer that the lights have been going on and I finnaly have a much bigger grasp of what is actually going on and how it works... I have been playing off and on since 1967 ( mainly acoustic) and seriously ( electric) for the last two years. It is only now that it makes sense.

So Chesh from what I can see in the very short time that I have had the book... I give it a thumbs up. (Wish that I would have had it years ago, howver learning it the hard way does reinforce it pretty deep ) I really look forward to seeing where it takes me from here. Thank you for introducing us to it I view it as a step in the road to where-ever God is leading me in my endevor to praise Him through music.

God Bless
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Unread 08-14-2004, 11:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Now Major Tom made a statement that I happen to agree with but feel that it needs to be qualified... the statement about not just playing scales etc. but just start playing. I do agree however that is what I did many years ago and even though I "memorized" a few songs I had no understanding of what I was really doing. By learning the pentatonic scales until they have become second nature I now have a new freedom that I do not know how I could achieve any other way. The guitar neck now makes a lot more sense and I understand how and where each chord fits into the picture. Bottom line... I now have the "freedom" to actually sit down and listen to a piece of music and play it.

Wax on, wax off

The purpose is not to memorize songs. , you can do that from tab or standard notation, or even having someone show you note for note (Stairway to Heaven so you can show off at music stores...). Doing this listen and copy thing IMHO, develops a player's ability to translate what they hear into notes on the fretboard, and recognize intervals and so forth by ear. What comes along with that is also the ability to translate, in real time, what the player hears in his/her head into notes on the fretbaord. It also should help the player determine how notes of a scale will sound in a real song. You can't hold back a player who can do all that

Not to mention, it is probably more interesting than doing dry exercises from a book. Without enough interest to maintain momentum, ain't much gonna happen.

disclaimer - I am not responsible for what may be in anyone's head.
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Unread 08-14-2004, 03:25 PM   #20
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i've seen brad praisley play on some shows on tv. i agree, the dude can play very well. i actually saw some music special one time that had him and john mayer paired together for some sort of concert. it was some more of a show with those two guys playing together.

how about bluegrass players?
i was never into it, but recently have seen it on tv on pbs and such and wow, there are some absolutely amazing musicians in that genre of music. and they can 'shred' on an acoustic guitar lol...i like the mandolin too..not too big on the banjo, but it's okay.
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Unread 08-14-2004, 06:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Okay, honestly, I have absolutely no idea what any of that means. Exactly how are you being a little different and what does that have to do with the value and benefit of learning? If self-taught is such a virtue and ideal, then why not opt for a self-taught Neuro-Surgeon who eschewed such conformist conventions as higher education and medical training? Of course, this reminds me of an interesting quote:



Well, no, no hard feelings, but who ever said I set out to answer your specific question about playing? I was responding to your comments on FBL, which, considering you made them in this thread, are fair game and on topic.



Chesh
What I meant was that a lot of people seem to be utilizing it, and I dislike doing what the "masses" do.(even though we all end up doing it anyway)

And as for the second part, I stand corrected. I did bring it up.
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Unread 08-14-2004, 07:07 PM   #22
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is Fretboard Logics a book? it sound very interesting. is there a website that i can go to to get more info?
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Unread 08-14-2004, 10:58 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever His
especially if it is the pentatonic scale (also know as the "caged")
First, FH, you made a lot of interesting points. I would, however, offer one critical distinction: the Caged System or Sequence is not just a fancy name for the whole of the pentatonic scales. It is, rather, the Global Positioning System, if you will, for the entire Guitar neck. It is the gestalt of all the Principles that govern how the Guitar plays. The pentatonic scales as you've learned them and experienced them is only one small, albeit highly utilized, facet.

As you move beyond the pentatonics scales and start digging a lot deeper, you'll see that it's a lot bigger than a handy way to move around pentatonic scales. Actually, it's breathe, length, and entirety is quite staggering when you think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by el cabong
What I meant was that a lot of people seem to be utilizing it, and I dislike doing what the "masses" do. (even though we all end up doing it anyway)
Really? Don't want to go along with what the masses do? Gee, I'm rereminded of a funny quote . . . what was that quote again?

Ah yes . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Vaughan
If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than a conformist, it's another nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standard of nonconformity.


But seriously, and, ironically I think is the word, if you want to do what the masses do, then keep on doing what you do, since what you do is exactly what the masses do. They go out and get some Mel Bay book or some other book that throws a ton of crap at the wall and sees what sticks, and then these poor souls go out and buy one book after another that can hopefully somehow explain what the first one can't, and so on.

So, basically, you are doing what the masses are doing. As the quote says, you are a non-conformist who is conforming to the prevailing standard of nonconformity. Interesting.

Also, I find your statements rather hypocritcal and conundrumous. I mean, you said with what I experienced to be some reverance and conceit that you are already using Guitar Grimoire series. Well, doesn't that series aspire to, auspice to, and assert the same wide acceptance and popularity of the FBL series? So, to paraphrase your earlier statements . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paraphrasing what you
I don't want to sell-out and conform to using this popular series because I don't follow the masses, and especially since I'm using this other popular series!
Do you see the oxymoronic and self-recurring logic of your statement?

And, ironic still, I actually agree with you in doing the opposite of whatever the masses do, because about 97% of the population lives what can be considered an average life, which is not all that groovy a thing. I want to be above average, so if everyone is going in this direction, I'm turning 180o and going in that direction.

So, I fully concur with you in that regard. And that is specifically why I use FBL. Simply put, it works. It works so well that the masses don't get it! It's incompatible with their average, piecemeal lives.

See, if you were to learn from FBL, then you would be in the rare minority that actually get it. It's popularity is rapidly expanding because people are catching on and because it works, but it is anything but the bandwagon you paint it to be. I know this because I've been the biggest proponent of FBL on the CGR and was probably the first one to mention it, or, barring that, champion it, and I can tell you that I was met with almost (like 99%) total skepticism. People were kicking and screaming, ranting and foaming at the mouth over my posts, accusing me of everything from being a stooge for Bill Edwards, to advertising, to actually being paid off by Bill, to drinking some crazy-but Kool-Aid, or what have you. Even when I took a hiatus, people still talked about me "hawking" FBL on here (their words).

Well, all I did was recommend it. It just so happened that I was rather eloquent and enthusiastic about it is all. No more enthusiastic or exuburent about it than anyone else here was/is about Fender, Gibson, Schecter, Taylor, or Phil Keaggy.

So, after championing the cause for about 2 years, now we have people actually trying it out for the first time (after 2 years of hearing about it) and they actually saying "hey, Chesh, you're right . . . it is a pretty good book".

So, if you really think that this whole FBL thing is a bandwagon kind of thing, I can assure you, nothing could be further from the truth . . . or the bandwagon for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_I_Am
is Fretboard Logics a book? it sound very interesting. is there a website that i can go to to get more info?
FBL is a essentially the Master Work on what can be called Guitar Mechanics, which are the specifically guitaristic concerns that we as Guitarists contend with when creating music on Guitar. These issues, while used to express ideas that manifest in the world of Music Theory, are completely and totally seperate from the principles that govern Music Theory. In short, for the Guitarist, these principles of both Guitar Mechanics and Music Theory are not one and the same, but do, however, work in tandem with each other.

In terms of guitar, what most people call theory is really two things lumped together:

Classic (or Proper) Music Theory [to recoin a term] and Guitar Mechanics.

Guitar Mechanics are the elements of guitar playing on a mechanical level. Stuff like how to finger or create chord forms, box patterns for scales, arpeggios and modes, lead patterns, and so on. All the questions/posts/threads about how to create/play certain chords, or how to play a riff, and things of that nature are matters of Guitar Mechanics.

Music Theory (classically taught in schools, et al, and considered to be "proper") deals with the specific notes of chords (as opposed to the tones generated at a specific fret/string intersection which we aurally recognize as a specific note) and their major, minor, perfect, augmented, or diminished relationship to other notes of the same chord, the various notes/tones that occur in a specific key, effective choices for chord selection for chord progressions (see chord prog thread), and so on.

So, for a guitarist, Guitar Mechanics is how you play all the tonal materials we use - chords, scales, arpeggios, and so on - and Music Theory is what we do with them - songs, instrumentals, concertos, and so on.

Now, because you have to know how to play these chords, scales, arpeggios, lead patterns, and so on, before you can actually apply them, it follows that you would want to master Guitar Mechanics before tackling Music Theory. In fact, for all practical purposes, that's all you really can do, or else you will just be an academian with an interest in Music Theory and a lot of head knowledge, but no ability to translate it into music.

And, besides, that's the biggest roadblock I see on here, and with startling regularity. Someone is trying to learn a song, and they get caught on some way to play a certain chord, or what inversion to play it in and so on, and that trips them up.

So, if you haven't master Guitar Mechanics initially, then you will constantly revisit it, over and over again, until you finally master it, as you work your way thru Music Theory. Also, not having mastered Guitar Mechanics can stunt your Music Theory growth by creating blind spots in your playing, as you try to translate Music Theory stuff into something that you can play on your guitar.

So, my suggestion would be, in addition to whatever excellent Music Theory book that the Nates recommend to you (do you guys realize how many Nates we have on here? ), get the only book that I have seen published on the matters of Guitar Mechanics, Fretboard Logic SE.

BTW, the logical question would be, "Why Guitar Mechanics? Do pianists have to learn Piano Mechanics?" Well, the answer to that question is "Yes and No".

The pianoforte is a direct desendant of the harpsichord, and the harpsichord was first invented as a compositional tool so that anything written on the music page could immediately be played with no mechanical translation or "interpretation" necessary. It was an attempt to make a Harp push button simple in terms of playing, and to give maximum range and possibility for harmonic material. (Then the pianoforte introduced the dynamic of subtlety and light and shade, being able to play softly ("piano") or strongly ("forte"). The "forte" was then later dropped from the name.)

So, in essence, because of the one-to-one relationships with each note occuring once on the music staff and once on the keyboard, there are not issues of mechanical translation.

So, in a sense, as far as the piano and keyboard instruments in general are concerned, for the Pianist/Keyboardist, Music Theory and "Piano" Mechanics are one and the same.

IOW, if that little black dot lands on a specific line or space in between those lines, there's only one key that you can play in response to that, or group of keys in response to a group of notes making up a chord.

On a guitar, it's different. Each note occurs not once, but many times, with the majority of them occurring 3 to 6 times. And then, while there is only one way to play a specific chord on a piano (give or take inversions), there are five distinct, different, universal ways to play that very same chord in terms of chord forms. And a guitarist who hopes to master his instrument needs to master these forms, or else he will be limited in his playing to one specific application of a chord, and may find himself traveling up and down the neck needlessly, just because of a lack of knowledge of the fretboard.

Also, FWIW, these issues of mechanics really don't apply to monophones, because the entire fingering convention is designed to create one note, like with a Flute or a Sax, and they don't play harmonic material, like chords. They can play thru chords, as with arpeggios, but they don't play chords in terms of simultanious notes.

Chesh
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Unread 08-14-2004, 11:02 PM   #24
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Unread 08-16-2004, 08:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Also, I find your statements rather hypocritcal and conundrumous. I mean, you said with what I experienced to be some reverance and conceit that you are already using Guitar Grimoire series. Well, doesn't that series aspire to, auspice to, and assert the same wide acceptance and popularity of the FBL series? So, to paraphrase your earlier statements . . .

Do you see the oxymoronic and self-recurring logic of your statement?

Chesh
I fully understand what you are saying, and I see it in myself. My only defense is that I don't really buy into "systems" and the like. Meaning that I try not to limit myself to looking at things from one way. And also, I had just recieved the books in the mail the day of my first post, which is why I said that I wouldn't be getting FBL anytime soon. I plan on chewing on these books, find what I like and what works for me, and then plod on to some other reference sources, I guess. Oh, and by the way Chesh, you are the only person I know who can make a post that long without flailing around or getting stale. Keep up the good work.
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Unread 08-16-2004, 09:56 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Tom
Hitch your wagon to a chicken

Ah, yes, more wisdom from Major Tom. And that classic Major Tom wit . . . well, half of it anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
Ground Control to Major Tom . . .


Quote:
Originally Posted by el cabong
I fully understand what you are saying, and I see it in myself. My only defense is that I don't really buy into "systems" and the like. Meaning that I try not to limit myself to looking at things from one way. And also, I had just recieved the books in the mail the day of my first post, which is why I said that I wouldn't be getting FBL anytime soon. I plan on chewing on these books, find what I like and what works for me, and then plod on to some other reference sources, I guess.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . . yeah, that makes sense.

Actually, I would suggest reading FBL first, at least the first third of it, and then go onto GG.


Quote:
Oh, and by the way Chesh, you are the only person I know who can make a post that long without flailing around or getting stale. Keep up the good work.
Thank you. I greatly appreciate it. High praise indeed.

Chesh
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Unread 08-16-2004, 10:02 PM   #27
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Ah, yes, more wisdom from Major Tom. And that classic Major Tom wit . . . well, half of it anyway.
GOOD ONE !!
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Unread 08-16-2004, 10:19 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Major Tom
GOOD ONE !!
You truly are a national treasure . . . well, regional, perhaps, but a treasure all the same.



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Unread 08-16-2004, 11:29 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
You truly are a national treasure . . . well, regional, perhaps, but a treasure all the same.



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I would settle for being a local treasure, Thanks



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Unread 08-17-2004, 01:28 AM   #30
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I feel rerally stupid asking this but I believe the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Also I'm not up to date on all the great learning tools out there. What is Fretboard Logic? All of my local shops just have books that are basicly Beginner Guitar, How to Play Rock Guitar and such so I tend not to pay much attebtion to this type of stuff. Like I've been looking for a Flemenco guitar book in my local shops for at least 8 months.
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