[JerryLove]

Yanno, Im not particularily Sure. As far as I know, Haiburton has had a continuing contract with the military to provide excess supply through civilian means in non-combat zones.

Actually, your cite talks a great deal both about the extreme gouging by Haliburton, and about the "rubber stamp approval" the government gives them.

Good point. But arguably, if they havent collapsed yet, and after the uproar during 2001-2002 about this in which thousands of people took their cash out of these companies.. If they're still standing, they're doing *something* right.

May of the companies that died in 2002 survived the last stock shake-up. History tells me that there are other Enrons and Andersons and Worldcomms sitting there like the dot.coms before them and the Junk bonds before them and the SnLs before them.

I belive it IS criminal now to make false profit statements, since this whole fiasco.. But can you give me a cite as to if it was before this?

False profit statements by a traded company is stock fraud. It's been illegal as long as I've been alive.

And I'd say that has ticked quite a few republicans off, as well as myself to some degree. However, I wonder particularily where all that cash is going. Granted, after 9/11 we simply had to make a larger govermnent.. but what would be intresting would be to see a set of figures to show where that cash went

I don't agree. The Afghan war was manageable with existing troop sizes, we didn't need to enter Iraq, most of the intelligence changes were restructuring (and expansion of human reasonurces is not a cost commincerate with the fiscal numbers we are talking about).... certainly 9/11 was bound ot have some fiscal impact, but we are talking about going overnight from cash-positive to the largest deficit spending in human history.

Eh..? Killing your neighbors for profit? Throwing away your job base? Explain please?

If we accept that the invasion of Iraq (which has cost the lives of my neighbors) was at least partiall motivated by a profit desire by Cheney... there's your first part.

As to throwing away my job base, I'm referring to offering incentives to companies to make it easer for them to move jobs off of American soil.

And do absolutely nothing while country after country becomes a Soviet Sattelite state? The Warsaw Bloc was growing during the 80s.. was it not?

Name the country that converted. I'm not aware of one.

Manufacturing to Mexico? I thought that whole move was during the 90s in the Bush Sr and Clinton Admin under NAFTA?

Actually Reagan, in his attempt to stimulate the economy by helping big business, gave tax breaks to manufacturers that moved their manufacturing from America to Mexico and Canada (trickle-down remember).

I dont think WWII did even, it was the manufacturing base that was revitalized by WWII, but every subsequent war (With the exception of Vietnam?) has shown a rise, at the least in the market.. But then I'm equating the market too much to the greater economy, I think.

I think you are... more importantly, however, can you support a higher-than-normal market grouwth during war-years?

In what? O.o; (Seriously.)

Dollar bills.

I'm actually intrested in this, could you give me some sort of cite? I've yet to actually hear what the heck he wants to do on this, only bits and peices that didnt sound too inviting. On either side.

I've heard him in speech after speech (and his people) talk about creating tax incentives for retraining and restructuring in the US...offering tax breaks for MEA (move/train pacages that are sometimes offered by companies) to create a more moblie/skilled workforce, and also inciting companies that perform work on-shore.

Better than if you were spending 100,000/year, yes. My argument in that respect is that there is something being done right, his has only recently come about. Personally I am going to wait and see what happens.

He's had 4 years... I think enough damage has been done.

[Hopeful]

While you're at it, play this song.

http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/conte...&ratingBar=off

[aiwahead]

Actually, your cite talks a great deal both about the extreme gouging by Haliburton, and about the "rubber stamp approval" the government gives them.

That it does, and Halliburton isnt perfect by any means. But I'd rather have something that shwos both sides than something that seems slanted in either directions. Criticality is generally (or should be, at least) seen as without partisanship. I did however find that the report on the after-action so to speak in which Haliburton did go after them was reported by O'Reily. Unfortunately the only reference I had found was on some really odd forum.

Many of the companies that died in 2002 survived the last stock shake-up. History tells me that there are other Enrons and Andersons and Worldcomms sitting there like the dot.coms before them and the Junk bonds before them and the SnLs before them.

History also shows that these same companies can be pulled out of the corruption through reorganization of their management..

Off subject question, somewhat. But do you know who re-opened Atari in the past few years? Another company, or did atari never truly die? (I belive the company was sold off after the video-game market crash in 82)

certainly 9/11 was bound ot have some fiscal impact, but we are talking about going overnight from cash-positive to the largest deficit spending in human history.

Any idea where one could get a chart of this?

If we accept that the invasion of Iraq (which has cost the lives of my neighbors) was at least partiall motivated by a profit desire by Cheney... there's your first part.

If we do accept it, correct that would be killing for profit. But what profit has it brought Cheney? Haliburton has certainly been under the gun. ( Speaking of which. Did anyone ever find when Haliburton FIRST got their contracts? )

As to throwing away my job base, I'm referring to offering incentives to companies to make it easer for them to move jobs off of American soil.

Specifics? I've heard this touted just as many times as I've heard it said that Kerry's plan would do the exact same (and the exact opposite). Yet I've never seen any proof either way.

On a side note, I checked out kerry's site and part of his economic plan is to 'revitalize manufacturing'. Honestly.. how? The only way feasable to do this would be to lower taxes and provide so many incentives on the sector that it would be cheaper to do so here instead of countries such as China. Besides which it is downright expensive to manufacture in the US because of the enviromental standards.

By everything I can figure, you'd be losing ALOT of cash for a gain that may never come.

Name the country that converted. I'm not aware of one.

My mistake, I was thinking of afganistan and didnt realize it.

I think you are... more importantly, however, can you support a higher-than-normal market grouwth during war-years?

Two aproximated charts are below. (so much happened in the last few years I had to split it)

He's had 4 years... I think enough damage has been done.

I didnt say wait for four years.. Im waiting untill the election before I make my final decision.

[JerryLove]

History also shows that these same companies can be pulled out of the corruption through reorganization of their management..

I'm not sure who you are thinking of, but yes: firing the corrupt individuals in charge and replacing them with non-corrupt ones removes the corrupt people... that's rather a truism.

Off subject question, somewhat. But do you know who re-opened Atari in the past few years? Another company, or did atari never truly die? (I belive the company was sold off after the video-game market crash in 82)

Atari survived long past 82... it eventually collapsed (under teh CEO I mentioned) and ended up owned by Infogrames, a German company who has changed their name to Atari in North America.

Any idea where one could get a chart of this?

I've posted it up here a few times.

Tri the info http://www.christianguitar.org/forum...hlight=deficit

Too borken up, but try: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...ilo/fedbgt.htm
http://www.ctj.org/html/debt0603.htm

The best one I re-found is http://www.ibewninthdistrict.org/Jus...s_08-26-03.pdf

In 1992, the last year of the old Bush, we had the largest federal deficit in history.
In 1998 (just over half way into the Clinton terms), and until Clinton left, we had te first balanced budget in a half-century.
In 2003 (just two years from the largest budget surplus of the century) we had a new largest deficit in history.

If we do accept it, correct that would be killing for profit. But what profit has it brought Cheney? Haliburton has certainly been under the gun. ( Speaking of which. Did anyone ever find when Haliburton FIRST got their contracts? )

Haliburton, who pays Cheney still, has reaped billions of taxpayer dollars from the war... and no, I have not found that.

Specifics? I've heard this touted just as many times as I've heard it said that Kerry's plan would do the exact same (and the exact opposite). Yet I've never seen any proof either way.

Specifics on future events are prety hard to come by... The basic idea is what Japan did in the 60s-70s. Tax corporations and then pay for infrastructure improvements and employee training through tax breaks... create a skilled workforce and good infrastructure and the business will work.

By everything I can figure, you'd be losing ALOT of cash for a gain that may never come.

What would you choose to do?

Two aproximated charts are below. (so much happened in the last few years I had to split it)

They seem to support my position.

WWII was flat, Korea was a slow rise, the time of peace after Korea was a sharper rise, Vietnam was flat, the 80s and 90s, which lacked any signifigant war, were a sharp rise, and the market has been poor since 2001.

[smashing guitar]

I whole heartedly suport bush.