[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

KFBobInsane'sMom....

The thread got off on another tangent but I thought I would let you know that I was completely wrong! And you were right. In psalm 69 that verse DOES refer the brothers and sisters of JESUS. However, this still doesn't help your argument any. Because WE are Jesus' brothers and sisters. We are the ones that separate ourselves from him because of our sin. NOT anyone mentioned in the passage is physically related to Him.

8 I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mother's sons

It doesn't say " my brethern have become strangers to me and my mother's sons have become aliens.", which it would have to say if what you are claiming is right. Look at the wording .... HE ( JESUS ) is the one who BECAME the stranger and alien....It is NOT saying we became the stranger and alien because of our sin.

Support for this? No problem. Jesus was born, grew up, learned the trade of a carpenter, and lived a relatively normal life it appears from what little is said in scripture of His life before He began His public ministry. He then begins a very public ministry, claiming to be the Christ. After this happens, we see his brothers not believing Him, and HE ( JESUS ) becomes a stranger to His brethren and an alien to His mother's sons.

Mark 3:13, 14, and 21 13 And He went up on the mountain and called to Him those He Himself wanted. And they came to Him. 14 Then He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach......21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, "He is out of His mind."

John 7:1-5 1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. 2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand. 3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. 4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. 5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

Matthew 13:54-58 54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? 57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief..... this passage shows they knew Jesus, but now that He is allowing them to see who He really is, they treat Him as a stranger and an alien.

[P3chrmd]

You say it is true, well what would you say if I could show you that the belief in the assumption of Mary was based on writings that one of the Popes listed as ones that no Catholic should believe? Your trust in a teaching of a church that has contradicted itself many many times over the years is all well and good for you, but don't expect those of us who know of these contradictions to trust in said church teachings.

blah blah blah! Because I believe truth!

If you wanna beileve Marys body is still on this earth...have fun lookin...cause you aint going to find nothin!!!!

No one in the past 2000 years has ever even CLAIMED to have remains of Mary!! BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT HERE! People have found the bones of Peter and other saints of the time...but no one has ever even CLAIMED TO HAVE MARYS REMAINS...because the simple fact that they knew that people would laugh at them if they claimed to have them...because they KNEW FOR A FACT that she was raptured into heaven...the apostles were there!!! Thats our hope...she was assumed because she was the perfect servent of the Lord who did his will and became his mother...spotless and sinless she was assumed straight into heaven...just as we will be one day!!! To me thats the most awsome testemony we as Christians have!!! Mary went before us...and one day we will follow...how awsome! So..someone could look all they want to...but Mary is not of this earth anymore...she is glorified in heaven with her son...as King and Queen of the new covenant in heaven!!!

[P3chrmd]

It doesn't say " my brethern have become strangers to me and my mother's sons have become aliens.", which it would have to say if what you are claiming is right. Look at the wording .... HE ( JESUS ) is the one who BECAME the stranger and alien....It is NOT saying we became the stranger and alien because of our sin.

boy your mind doesen't stretch to far does it! You can tell your a fundamentalist!!

MY BROTHERS BECOME STRANGERS TO ME...is right...but we do become strangers to God because most of the people of this world..walk around and don't even think twice about Jesus or his love for us every day!!! There are SO MANY in this world right now...who...don't know Jesus. Sure they have heard his name...and may go to chruch on sundays...but they don't know him...or live their life by him!!! THEY ARE STRANGERS...and they are seperating themselves from him by their sin!

[P3chrmd]

In any future posts, please don't just tell me what some Catholic in the past has said, as I don't have any reason to believe them... explain from SCRIPTURE why what you claim is true and what I claim is false as I will simply disregard everything else.

BUt why should I only use scriptue!!!

WHAT IF I TOLD YOU...that sacred tradition is just as important as sacred scripture! I HATE THE BELIEF in Sola Scriptura...it leads to down right stupidity and curruption! The bible...NO WHERE says that it should be the only thing used to judge doctorine and dogma...yes its the word of God and should be used to make doctorine and dogma...but NOT THE ONLY THING USED!

1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess. 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said is recorded in Scripture (does that make it anyless important?)
Mk 13:31 - heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words won't
Acts 20:35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in the gospels
2 Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words, guard the truth
2 Tim 2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men
2 Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation!
2 Pet 3:15-16 - Pauls letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret
1 Pet 1:25 - God's eternal word = word preached to you
Rom 10:17 - faith comes from what is heard
1 Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached
Mk 16:15 - go to whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature
Mt 23:2-3 - chair of Moses, observe whatever they tell you

St. Athanasius (360 AD) - "Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founde; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called Christian..."

You're just caught up in a false belief that poor Martin Luther (interesting side note...his real name..can't remember what it was..but I do rememeber reading it meant satan!!! WOW) thought was a good idea! See all of these seperated churches...when someone has a problem in a protestant church..they just simpley start a new one! I imagine this make the Lord very angry...no? The catholic church is one...true...apostolic...established by Christ and his apostles..plain and simple...we can traise our history back! And if you say that we fell into corruption in what we believe and our doctorines...then you are calling Jesus a liar...because he said that he would be with us until the end of time..The Holy Spirit would always be with us! So, the catholic church was "HOLY" enough to decide what books should go in the bible...but we aren't "HOLY" enough to make dogmas about Mary! ok...im sorry...i just have nothing else to say!

[Link H]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

I took a look at Matt. 2. What are you trying to say with this? And where in Scripture exactly does it say that they ever married? As far as we can know all they ever did was get betrothed. Although marriage would probably be the next likely step, Scripture never says.

... Why not refer to Mary as his wife?

It does. Look at Matthew 2:24. Joseph took her as his wife, but he didn't sleep with her until after Jesus was born.

[swordfish7]

Originally Posted by p3chrmd

BUt why should I only use scriptue!!!

WHAT IF I TOLD YOU...that sacred tradition is just as important as sacred scripture! I HATE THE BELIEF in Sola Scriptura...it leads to down right stupidity and curruption! The bible...NO WHERE says that it should be the only thing used to judge doctorine and dogma...yes its the word of God and should be used to make doctorine and dogma...but NOT THE ONLY THING USED!

1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess. 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition

It is sad to me that you hate Sola Scriptura. However, it is that bias that helps explain how it is that you have misunderstood 1 Cor. 11:2 and 2 Thess. 3:6. The “tradition” that Paul speaks of here are Paul’s very own writings, and his very own teachings, the traditions which he himself began, not someone else’s traditions or teachings, as you seem to think these verses say.

Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 1 Cor. 11:2

It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. 2 Thess 2:14,15

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. 2 Thess. 3:6

In fact, the Bible is very, very uncomplimentary of traditions that are outside the Word of God:

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. Col. 2:8

For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions. Gal 1:13,14

"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." Mark 7:8,9,13

Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote, Isaiah 29:13

Appealing to tradition instead of appealing to the Word of God is no where supported by Scripture.

[exo]

Originally Posted by P3chrmd

BUt why should I only use scriptue!!!

WHAT IF I TOLD YOU...that sacred tradition is just as important as sacred scripture! I HATE THE BELIEF in Sola Scriptura...it leads to down right stupidity and curruption! The bible...NO WHERE says that it should be the only thing used to judge doctorine and dogma...yes its the word of God and should be used to make doctorine and dogma...but NOT THE ONLY THING USED!

Sola scriptura is not the belief that it should be the only thing used. It is the belief that it is the final authority on all matters concerning faith (1 Tim 3:16).

I'm also wondering about your comment of 'stupidity and corruption'. Surely you recognize that the RCC has had its fair amount of corruption? If this is what you use to judge and certain system of theology and Christian practices, then you condemn your own church.

St. Athanasius (360 AD) - "Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founde; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called Christian..."

This statement is laughable. Do you actually claim that the RCC today looks and teaches the same things that the RCC taught in 360AD?

You're just caught up in a false belief that poor Martin Luther (interesting side note...his real name..can't remember what it was..but I do rememeber reading it meant satan!!! WOW)

Don't believe everything you read. Gosh, you're just as bad as the fundamental evangelical Christians. I think the Protestants on the board would appreciate you ceasing the telling of these lies. Theology is the subject here, not speculation and numerology.

thought was a good idea! See all of these seperated churches...when someone has a problem in a protestant church..they just simpley start a new one! I imagine this make the Lord very angry...no? The catholic church is one...true...apostolic...established by Christ and his apostles..plain and simple...we can traise our history back!

And so can we. We can trace it back through the RCC in fact. I have no problem with those roots, but I do have a problem where it has departed.

I also find it surprising that you claim that each and every RCC church teaches the same thing. I'd venture to guess that it's actually quite similar to Protestant denominations. There are just as many differing opinions in the Catholic faith.

And if you say that we fell into corruption in what we believe and our doctorines...then you are calling Jesus a liar...because he said that he would be with us until the end of time..

And there's the rub. What this statement by Jesus does is basically give the RCC license to believe whatever they want no matter how outlandish or un-Scriptural it is. The pride behind that statement that you just gave is amazing and it has been the downfall of the RCC.

The Holy Spirit would always be with us! So, the catholic church was "HOLY" enough to decide what books should go in the bible...but we aren't "HOLY" enough to make dogmas about Mary! ok...im sorry...i just have nothing else to say!

Exactly. As shown by the Pharisees... they were the chosen of God. The Jews started out all well and good. But, over time, they began to develop traditions that were out of line with what God intended or even at times outright blasphemous. This is why we have the Scriptures as our final authority. If we have no final authority or we have another authority that can change over time as it pleases, then we begin to have doctrines, dogmas, and theology that is inconsistent at best and blasphemous at worst.

[P3chrmd]

In fact, the Bible is very, very uncomplimentary of traditions that are outside the Word of God:

exactly right! Those traditions you are reffering to are the traditions of man! Apostolic Tradition is a different story!

[P3chrmd]

Surely you recognize that the RCC has had its fair amount of corruption? If this is what you use to judge and certain system of theology and Christian practices, then you condemn your own church.

Oh absolutley Im not blind...there has been corruption amoung chruch leaders and officials...because they are all human beings...but never has there EVER EVER been corruption about dogmas and doctorines of faith! Because christ promised us that the holy spirit would always be with us! How could the spirit be with us...and allow us to make false doctorines of faith...thats calling Jesus a liar!!!!!!!! AND HES NOT!

[P3chrmd]

Exactly. As shown by the Pharisees... they were the chosen of God. The Jews started out all well and good. But, over time, they began to develop traditions that were out of line with what God intended or even at times outright blasphemous. This is why we have the Scriptures as our final authority. If we have no final authority or we have another authority that can change over time as it pleases, then we begin to have doctrines, dogmas, and theology that is inconsistent at best and blasphemous at worst

Yes, but Christ was sent back to make things right...and start his new church and he did!!! AND THIS TIME he promised that if we held fast to what he taught us...then he would always be with us...never leaving us...the Holy Spirit to guide us!!

So, let me get this straight...the early christians as early as 100 AD were already corrupt? (the earliest prayer to Mary was found as early as 100 AD) That makes no since??!?! And your going to tell me that for the first 1,500 years of christianity everyone had it WRONG...until Martin luther came along about some odd 500 years ago??? THATS ABSURED! The chruch didn't fall into apostocy...Christ said that it wouldnt!

[exo]

Originally Posted by P3chrmd

exactly right! Those traditions you are reffering to are the traditions of man! Apostolic Tradition is a different story!

How do you differentiate between the two? The Pharisees where the righteous of the righteous. They were God's chosen people.

[exo]

Originally Posted by P3chrmd

Oh absolutley Im not blind...there has been corruption amoung chruch leaders and officials...because they are all human beings...but never has there EVER EVER been corruption about dogmas and doctorines of faith! Because christ promised us that the holy spirit would always be with us! How could the spirit be with us...and allow us to make false doctorines of faith...thats calling Jesus a liar!!!!!!!! AND HES NOT!

Any corruption about faith is also closely monitored in Protestantism. There is such a thing as 'orthodox' Christianity.

The problem here is that you 'beg the question' with your logic. You say:

1) The doctrine in the Catholic church is not corrupted.

Why? Because:

1) The Catholic Church says that it isn't.
2) Because it, along with the Bible, are the authority on the interpretation of what Jesus meant when he said that the Holy Spirit would preserve the church.

Views from outside the RCC would beg to differ.

[exo]

Originally Posted by P3chrmd

Yes, but Christ was sent back to make things right...and start his new church and he did!!! AND THIS TIME he promised that if we held fast to what he taught us...then he would always be with us...never leaving us...the Holy Spirit to guide us!!

Sorry, but you are 'begging the question' there... a logical no-no. People outside of the RCC beg to differ.

So, let me get this straight...the early christians as early as 100 AD were already corrupt? (the earliest prayer to Mary was found as early as 100 AD) That makes no since??!?!

I never said that. You will also find that the earliest corruption of any kind in the church is evidenced in the Bible not even a generation after Christ's crucifixion.

And your going to tell me that for the first 1,500 years of christianity everyone had it WRONG...until Martin luther came along about some odd 500 years ago??? THATS ABSURED! The chruch didn't fall into apostocy...Christ said that it wouldnt!

Right. The church didn't. Because of Luther.

Also, in order to say that you have to assume that the RCC has not changed one iota during that time period.

Also, I find it interesting that you would say that something like a reformation of a church is absurd (especially considering the vast amount of promises made by the LORD that were directed towards Israel) when you just said, "Yes, but Christ was sent back to make things right...and start his new church and he did." So, you just refuted one of Jesus' purposes that you claimed above.

I am by no means equating Luther with Christ, but I am showing that a church can very easily need reformation. It is not absurd.

Please respond to my other points. If you continue to pick and choose then there's no need to debate here, because your responses will then belie your true motives.

[P3chrmd]

Right. The church didn't. Because of Luther.

Also, in order to say that you have to assume that the RCC has not changed one iota during that time period.

Also, I find it interesting that you would say that something like a reformation of a church is absurd (especially considering the vast amount of promises made by the LORD that were directed towards Israel) when you just said, "Yes, but Christ was sent back to make things right...and start his new church and he did." So, you just refuted one of Jesus' purposes that you claimed above.

I am by no means equating Luther with Christ, but I am showing that a church can very easily need reformation. It is not absurd.

Please respond to my other points. If you continue to pick and choose then there's no need to debate here, because your responses will then belie your true motives.

There was a reformation...and it was a good one...called the Catholic Reformation...headed by St. Francis of Assisi (spelling? lol) He, like Luther, saw the problems in the church and had a vision of the Lord who told him "Fix my Church!" and so, unlike Luther, he decided to reform inside the church instead of splitting off to form another church...Luther was right to question the church...but he should have done like St. Francis and work inside Christs already established chruch to fix the problems...not...create a new church...you see what that has led to don't you!? thousands of denominations that exsist today...because they interpret the bible the way THEY want to! So yes...reformation was good...but not OUTSIDE the church like Luther...but INSIDE the church like St. Francis!

[P3chrmd]

Whats also is interesting is that Luther, Calvin and all of the other protestant reformers believed everything the catholic chruch has taught about Mary! Her always remaining a virgin, the immaculate conception, and her assumption into heaven...and these are the ones who started sola scriptura...they looked inside the bible...read it all and still believed the Marian doctorines...so why is it so hard for protestants to believe them today? Well I think we are on the brink of rebuliding some bridges...here where I live in North Carolina...the Catholic Bishops have signed with the Lutherans to try to work towards rebuilding those bridges that were burnt long ago...it will take a long time...and I doubt it will be in my lifetime...but maybe we will start to see some unification going on...because we are all Gods people!

Matin Luther quotes on Mary:

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).

Christ ... was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him ... "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace ... Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ ... Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees ... If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).