[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

The RCC says there are no physical brothers, the Bible does not say this. It said that Jesus would be an alien and a stranger to the children of His mother. You need to read this as it is written, not turn it around so that it could support your claim. It IS written that it would be Jesus who would become the stranger and alien, not us. Has Jesus ever been a stranger to us, the believers?? NO. Was Jesus a stranger and alien to His earthly brothers, YES, I have already shown the verses to support this. It does mean something, it means that your belief is flawed because you are turning this verse around to say something it does not say and then using it to support what you claim.

Jesus = stranger and alien to His mother's children does NOT equal
His mother's children = strangers and aliens to Jesus

I'm getting to this. I will answer you soon. Still, to believe that Jesus had physical brothers based on an obscure phrase in Psalms is weak at best. But I'm getting there.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

Why don't it say that there is a Trinity? St. John sure spells it out pretty durn clearly in Revelation 12. There we see her body and soul in heaven. But if you wish to be ignorant still there's nothing I can do.

.

I have never claimed Mary is not in Heaven. I am very sure she believed in her son and she accepted His salvation. To be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord. That doesn't mean she was " assumed" or "taken up" as were Enoch and Elijah.

Was Abraham " assumed"? Well, we see him holding the beggar in his bosom, so from your claim he must have been.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

I will be glad to do this.... it will take a few days as we have a church dinner tonight and then my boys band is playing at our church block party tomorrow so I have no free time at the moment. I will post it as a new thread since it is only slightly applicable to this one.

No problem, take your time. You won't find anything useful but however long it takes I'll be here.

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

Just a quick question before I spend time on this... do you consider all past Popes to be INFALLIBLE???

Of course not! Popes are men just as any other. It is only when they proclaim that they are speaking on an infallible issue that they are so. In other words when they are speaking ex cathedra(from the Chair of Peter).

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

I have never claimed Mary is not in Heaven. I am very sure she believed in her son and she accepted His salvation. To be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord. That doesn't mean she was " assumed" or "taken up" as were Enoch and Elijah.

Well according to Rev. 12 she was.

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

Was Abraham " assumed"? Well, we see him holding the beggar in his bosom, so from your claim he must have been.

I don't know I'm not so familiar with the passage. Post it and it can be discussed. It's not a teaching of the Church, but it may be possible.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

I'm getting to this. I will answer you soon. Still, to believe that Jesus had physical brothers based on an obscure phrase in Psalms is weak at best. But I'm getting there.

What is obscure about " I am become a stranger to my brethren and an alien unto my mother's children."??? We see the fulfillment of this in the NT. Nothing obscure here, just something you don't wish to acknowledge. My believe is based on many NT verses also, NOT just this one messianic passage in Psalm 69.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

No problem, take your time. You won't find anything useful but however long it takes I'll be here.

Of course not! Popes are men just as any other. It is only when they proclaim that they are speaking on an infallible issue that they are so. In other words when they are speaking ex cathedra(from the Chair of Peter).

I have already found it, I just need to put it in a logical order. This belief was based on a writing that was later listed by one of the Popes ( can't recall which offhand) as being something no catholic should believe in and if they did , they were anathema .

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

Well , scripture says you can't .....

1 Corinthians 7: 1-5 1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. 4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. 5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency

All the missionary couples I know have " normal" marriages, in other words they have a sexual relationship. God designed it this way and in speaking of marriage He says the following....Genesis 2 18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him....21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Notice that right now Eve is called woman, not wife.... next verse we see what makes her a wife....

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

A wife is the one who a man leaves his father and mother for, who he cleaves to , and who he becomes one flesh with.

None of this says that the sexual act is REQUIRED. Only that it is to be given if requested or demanded.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

I have already found it, I just need to put it in a logical order. This belief was based on a writing that was later listed by one of the Popes ( can't recall which offhand) as being something no catholic should believe in and if they did , they were anathema .

Fine, let's see it.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

Well according to Rev. 12 she was.

I don't see any such claim in Rev 12. No clue how you can get that Mary was bodily taken up from that chapter. How about in Rev. 4:4 " four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold" , were all of these also " assumed"?

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

None of this says that the sexual act is REQUIRED. Only that it is to be given if requested or demanded.

How is " let every man HAVE his own wife" a request or demand??? Sounds like a command .

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

How is " let every man HAVE his own wife" a request or demand??? Sounds like a command .

And what if he doesn't want a wife? Look at all those in Scripture that weren't married. If you were referring to the marital act, then what if that isn't wanted? It just says to allow it if it is wanted.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

I don't see any such claim in Rev 12. No clue how you can get that Mary was bodily taken up from that chapter. How about in Rev. 4:4 " four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold" , were all of these also " assumed"?

She's the woman in the first verses. John obviously sees her there.

[P3chrmd]

Getting back to the part about Mary being the spouse of the Holy Spirit! Well for those who DONT believe that...answer the following questions..

1. Who is Jesus’ father?


2. Was Jesus born illegitimate (i.e. without the commitment of marriage by Jesus’ true father)?

[P3chrmd]

Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, facing the east; but it was closed. He said to me: This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed. (Ezekiel 44:1-2)

In Catholic traditionally Mary is seen as the gate that Jesus used to enter this world and obtain his body, the temple of God. But even if you reject this, the concept is clear that there are some things that are sacred and because of this it is not right to use them in a common way.

There is more evidence that Mary is something sacred. Biblically, Mary is a type of the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant. There is some very interesting proof for this belief. In the Ark there were three objects, the manna, the staff of Aaron, and the tables. In Mary she held the perfect fulfillment of these objects that were in the Ark of the Covenant.(see John 6:51-52, John 10:11, John 1:14) In Luke Chapter one the angle tells Mary that the Holy spirit is going to "overshadow" her. This term is used in the Old Testament to mean God’s presence over the Ark of the Covenant. (Exodus 40:34- 35) The presence of God in the Ark of the Covenant was so holy that if you even touched it you would die. In fact that is exactly what happened when Uzzah touched the ark to stop it from falling over (2 Sam 6:6-7). There is more evidence that Mary is a type of the Ark of the Covenant. To see this evidence go HERE . Like the Ark of the Covenant she is sacred (set apart) and because of this she did not have sexual relations with Joseph.

Thanks to my good friend cure of ars at phatmass for the above statement

[goldenchild]

Yup yup. Good stuff