[Nate]

****.

This is what happens when the more "mature" of our users (myself included in this case) take certain liberties with things like language, joking around, sexual references, alcohol discussion, etc, etc... the younger people suddenly think they're mature enough to take part, but they're not and it winds up a mess because they don't treat those topics appropriately; they just think it's fun to play "dress-up," so to speak, as an adult.

In His love,
Nate

[swim2112]

I used to be cheap *and I still am* but please tell me that I was never that bad .


How are you today/tonight Nate?

[Nate]

I just watched the film "Dogville" tonight. It was amazing. Wow. So much depth.

Check the Movies forum for more of my thoughts about it. I'll probably post a little more in here later.

In His love,
Nate

[benj]

I'm glad to hear you liked it, Nate. I thought it was great, too. Next see "Dancer in the Dark." I told you that in the thread in movies, too.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by benj

Next see "Dancer in the Dark."

I will think about it... but, honestly, Bjork gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[nix]

I'm stressing a bit! this dude is seriously getting out of hand and I've email bill, rach & luke but nothing has come from it.

[benj]

Haha, yeah. I usually like her work, but I can understand that reaction. She did wear a swan as clothing once.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by benj

Haha, yeah. I usually like her work, but I can understand that reaction. She did wear a swan as clothing once.

Haha. It doesn't help that the first time I heard of or saw Bjork was in the context of the infamous swan costume.

[Nate]

*possible spoilers ahead if you're ever going to see the movie*

There were basically three major phases of the movie in regards to the townspeople's treatment of Grace (Nicole Kidman's character): acceptance, abuse, and apathy. I think that we often experience the same phases in our treatment of Grace (not Nicole Kidman, but God's free gift in Jesus Christ). There are times (it seems often early in a person's spiritual life) that we wholeheartedly accept Grace and welcome its presence in our day-to-day lives, just like the townspeople in the first parts of the movie. Then, there are times when we abuse and cheapen Grace by simply using it when it suits us best instead of following as a true disciple, just like the townspeople in the middle of the movie. Then, there are times when we just don't seem to care anymore about Grace and would rather just get rid of it altogether so that we can go back to "normal," just like the townspeople in the very end of the movie. Just like in this movie, however, Grace forgives us time and time again... because that's what Grace does and what it is.

At the very end of the movie, however, something terrible happened... Grace gave them up. Scripture teaches us that something similar will happen to some people. God gave up the people of Sodom and Gomorrah to their own selfish lusts, because He realized that they were at the point of no return. His Spirit will not always strive for us if we continue to reject Him. Let us be careful to accept His gift of Grace, but not to move to a place where we abuse God's forgiveness or, worse yet, become apathetic about it. If we are Christians, we can be assured that He will not forsake us forever, but there will still be consequences for our actions, just like there were eventually consequences for the townspeople of Dogville.

In His love,
Nate

[benj]

Out of curiosity, would you say this movie ended redemptively or not?

[Nate]

Originally Posted by benj

Out of curiosity, would you say this movie ended redemptively or not?

Honestly... I'm not sure. I'm still mulling it all over. It really moved me. I can't think of the last time a movie has actually made me think, much less about anything worthwhile. This is a relatively new experience for me.

[Nate]

Song lyrics of the moment:

Let us love and sing and wonder,
Let us praise the Savior's Name!
He has hushed the Law's loud thunder,
He has quenched Mount Sinai's flame!

He has washed us with His blood,
He has washed us with His blood,
He has washed us with His blood,
He has brought us near to God!

Let us love the Lord who bought us,
Pitied us when enemies,
Called us by His grace and taught us,
Gave us ears and gave us eyes!

He has washed us with His blood,
He has washed us with His blood,
He has washed us with His blood,
He presents our souls to God!

Let us sing though fierce temptation
Threaten hard to bear us down,
For the Lord, our strong salvation,
Holds in view the conqueror's crown!

He who washed us with His blood,
He who washed us with His blood,
He who washed us with His blood,
Soon will bring us home to God!

Let us wonder grace and justice,
Join and point to mercy's store;
When, through grace, in Christ our trust is,
Justice smiles and asks no more!

He who washed us with His blood,
He who washed us with His blood,
He who washed us with His blood,
Has secured our way to God!

Let us praise and join the chorus
Of the saints enthroned on high!
Here, they trusted Him before us,
Now, their praises fill the sky!

You have washed us with Your blood,
You have washed us with Your blood,
You have washed us with Your blood,
You are worthy, Lamb of God!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grace and justice - seemingly opposed, yet complementary. Without the very real fear of the righteous and just wrath of God, there is no need or appreciation of His free gift of grace. I think this is often what causes us, like the townspeople in the movie, to move from acceptance of that gift to a state of either abuse or apathy. When we don't realize how much we need grace, we mistreat it, neglect it, and forget it. This is why, as I've been mentioning recently, the sinfulness of man is an essential part of the Gospel, and must, indeed, be the starting place of the Gospel. Without sin, there is no forgiveness. Without justice, there is no grace.

What differentiates the Christian theme of redemption from the events that happened at the end of this movie is the fact that, in Christianity, justice was transferred to an innocent third party so that grace could remain grace. Grace does not destroy justice, but fulfills it... and it does so with reckless abandon. The Law requires death for sin, and, - the bliss of this glorious thought! - oh, how it was fulfilled by Christ! "Once for all," the Hebrews-writer says! They must coexist. There cannot be no justice, for then grace would not be grace (as we have said before). Justice must be meted out on somebody or something or else grace cannot be meted out to the one who originally deserved justice. The Law must be fulfilled on our behalf, and that is exactly what happens under the Christian theme of redemption.

I think the end of this movie was actually the opposite of redemption. I think it was almost damnation. The townspeople became, as I mentioned earlier, analogous to the people whom God simply gives up on. Justice was meted out to those who deserved it, not to a scapegoat. That said, I don't think the movie portrays a hopeless state. It serves, rather, as a warning... just like the analogous passages in Scripture are intended as warnings. What happened to the townspeople of Dogville could happen to us if we do not accept God's grace and treat it rightfully. This does not deny the very real fact, however, that God's grace still allows the scapegoat, the Lamb of God, to take our place if we accept His grace.

"When, through grace, in Christ our trust is, justice smiles and asks no more!"

In His love,
Nate

[benj]

The bolded portion of that hymn is one of my all-time favorite stanzas in any hymn.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by benj

The bolded portion of that hymn is one of my all-time favorite stanzas in any hymn.

Mine as well. Mine as well.

[Nate]

Notwithstanding what I said above concerning the end of the film, I think the following passage of Scripture shows that the end could actually be considered to be redemptive... Scripture passage of the moment:

1 Corinthians 5:1-13

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.

When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We're commanded to excommunicate, quite literally, a person who has previously accepted God's grace (a person who "bears the name of brother," Paul would say) but has since turned to immorality (which could occur either through abuse or apathy concerning God's grace). In so doing, we are told that "his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."

These are some of the hardest words in Scripture, I think. We are told to allow a fellow brother in Christ to suffer the torture of the devil and, eventually, to die and leave this world, for no other reason except the fact that he returned to immorality. How often we all return to it, though!

I am going to risk some conjecture now, but could it be that God sometimes takes people out of this world or allows Satan to take them out so that their spirit will be saved from the flesh which had been overpowering them? Could it be that that is what Grace's father and his crew did at the end of this movie? Were they really saving them by taking them out? Is this analogous to the situation that Paul was speaking about in this chapter of his letter to the Corinthians? I think it could be. Talk about tough love.

In His love,
Nate