[bobthecockroach]

Particular things I'd like answered: Must one believe in all the councils and creeds of the RCC? Must one be in the RCC? Must one be baptized? Participate in mass? Confession?

I'm more concerned with what one must believe rather than what one must do. (And of course I'm looking for official Catholic dogma rather than opinions.)

I will note for the responder's sake that I am not Catholic and do not ever plan to become Catholic. I am asking out of curiousity.

[Katholish]

A Catholic must believe all of the Dogmas and Doctrines of the Church.

Material heresy is where a person holds an opinion contrary to what the Church teaches, but is unaware that they are in opposition to the Church and are therefore not culpable, Formal Heresy is where a contrary opinion is held despite sufficient knowledge of the Church's position and responsibility for accepting that position.

One must be baptized to be saved (this can be through Desire or Blood as well as water if the conditions apply).

This doctrine usually goes by the Latin phrase Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (Outside the Church there is no Salvation)

One must be in Communion with the Church to be saved, but Baptism itself puts one into sufficient if not perfect communion with the Church.

One must be part of the visible Church if sufficient knowledge is possessed to make one responsible to due so.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by Katholish

A Catholic must believe all of the Dogmas and Doctrines of the Church.

Material heresy is where a person holds an opinion contrary to what the Church teaches, but is unaware that they are in opposition to the Church and are therefore not culpable, Formal Heresy is where a contrary opinion is held despite sufficient knowledge of the Church's position and responsibility for accepting that position.

What about a non-Catholic? I hold many contrary opinions to the Catholic church despite knowledge of their positions. Does this mean that I am excluded from the possibility of being saved as long as I continue in such heresies?

This doctrine usually goes by the Latin phrase Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (Outside the Church there is no Salvation)

One must be in Communion with the Church to be saved, but Baptism itself puts one into sufficient if not perfect communion with the Church.

One must be part of the visible Church if sufficient knowledge is possessed to make one responsible to due so.

Must this baptism be in a Catholic church for sufficient communion to be achieved?

By "visible Chruch" I assume you mean a Catholic church only. Is that correct?

[drummergirl]

The Catholic Church recognizes all valid baptisms. Let's say you were baptized in a Baptist church and then became Catholic you wouldn't get rebaptized.

Here is my confusion, are you asking what the RCC teaches about salvation or are you wanting to know what it means to be a RC?

[Katholish]

What about a non-Catholic? I hold many contrary opinions to the Catholic church despite knowledge of their positions. Does this mean that I am excluded from the possibility of being saved as long as I continue in such heresies?

It is the opinion of most Catholic theologians that if a person is not part of the visible they cannot really be a formal heretic since they do not recognize the authority to which they dissent. They can be guilty of rejecting the Church which they may have been responsible to join, and they may be material heretics, but Formal heresy is more difficult to apply to those not in communion with the Church in governance.

The mere fact that you hold opinions contrary to what the Church teaches as doctrine does not necessarily exclude you from the possibility of salvation, no.

Must this baptism be in a Catholic church for sufficient communion to be achieved?

By "visible Chruch" I assume you mean a Catholic church only. Is that correct?

The Baptism must be valid, but this need not be done by a Catholic nor in a Catholic Church. For the sacrament of Baptism to be valid three things are necessary, Form, Matter, and Intent. The Form of Baptism is the pronouncement of the Trinitarian formula simultaneous with the washing. The Matter is pure water used to wash the body either by immersion or by pouring. (Sprinkling is not considered valid) Intent is the intent to confer a sacrament and to do what the Church does. If there is an explicit denial that a sacrament is occuring, Intent is not present and there is no valid Baptism.

By the "visible" Church I mean being in full Communion with the Church on Earth, having unity of Governance (recognizing the pope and bishops), unity of worship (sharing the sacraments and liturgy), and unity of Doctrine (professing the same Dogmas and Doctrines)

[bobthecockroach]

So if I do not recognize the pope, the bishops, the sacraments (aside from communion and baptism) or the dogmas and doctrines... does that exclude me from the possibilty of salvation (so long as I continue in such a standpoint)?

Basically, I'm just trying to get a better grasp on the Catholic position on salvation.

[drummergirl]

It would only hinder your salvation if you believed that the RCC was correct and still decided not to be in union with the teachings of the Church.

Since the beginning of the church it has taught at the most elementary level that salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone. Christ taught that if you love Him you will follow His teachings and we believe the doctrine and dogma taught by the church are His teachings. So if we truly love Him we will subject ourselves to the church we believe He began. "If you love me, you will obey what I command." John 14:15

[drummergirl]

It would only hinder your salvation if you believed that the RCC was correct and still decided not to be in union with the teachings of the Church.

Since the beginning of the church it has taught at the most elementary level that salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone. Christ taught that if you love Him you will follow His teachings and we believe the doctrine and dogma taught by the church are His teachings. So if we truly love Him we will subject ourselves to the church we believe He began. "If you love me, you will obey what I command." John 14:15

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

So if I do not recognize the pope, the bishops, the sacraments (aside from communion and baptism) or the dogmas and doctrines... does that exclude me from the possibilty of salvation (so long as I continue in such a standpoint)?

Basically, I'm just trying to get a better grasp on the Catholic position on salvation.

This is what the Catechism says.

"Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body' not ‘in heart.'"321

Wounds to unity


817
In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body—here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270—do not occur without human sin:


Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271


818
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272


819
"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
Toward unity


820
"Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279


821
Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:


a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280


conversion of heart as the faithful "try to live holier lives according to the Gospel";281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ's gift which causes divisions;


prayer in common, because "change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name ‘spiritual ecumenism;'"282


fraternal knowledge of each other;283


ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284


dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285


collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 "Human service" is the idiomatic phrase.


822
Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize "that this holy objective—the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ—transcends human powers and gifts." That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

....

CCC 838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

(Me) As drummergirl said above - It is the teaching of the Church that if you were convinced that the Catholic Church had the fullness of the Truth about Christ, you would be obliged to join her fold. If you did not, you could not be saved.

[bobthecockroach]

I see.

So, in summary, since I was not born into the Catholic church and have recieved Christ outside of it, I have imperfect communion with the Catholic church to the degree necessary for salvation. It is my duty, however, if I should ever come into agreement with the Catholic church, that I join such to preserve my salvation.

To jump back to the topic of baptism, could I get a fuller explanation of the Intent aspect. My particular baptism was done in the Form and Matter perscribed but I'm not sure if I agree with intent. Particular, how is the word "sacrament" being used here. I am of the belief that physical baptism is simply a sign of spiritual baptism that comes from the Holy Spirit. Does this place me outside of the Intent?

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

I see.

So, in summary, since I was not born into the Catholic church and have recieved Christ outside of it, I have imperfect communion with the Catholic church to the degree necessary for salvation. It is my duty, however, if I should ever come into agreement with the Catholic church, that I join such to preserve my salvation.

To jump back to the topic of baptism, could I get a fuller explanation of the Intent aspect. My particular baptism was done in the Form and Matter perscribed but I'm not sure if I agree with intent. Particular, how is the word "sacrament" being used here. I am of the belief that physical baptism is simply a sign of spiritual baptism that comes from the Holy Spirit. Does this place me outside of the Intent?

Where did your baptism occur? Who baptised you?

[Katholish]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

So if I do not recognize the pope, the bishops, the sacraments (aside from communion and baptism) or the dogmas and doctrines... does that exclude me from the possibilty of salvation (so long as I continue in such a standpoint)?

Basically, I'm just trying to get a better grasp on the Catholic position on salvation.

If you were not in full union with the Church, i.e. recognize the authority of her heirarchy, etc, you would be excluded from Salvation IF you were actually responsible for coming into full communion with the Church. This is a distinction that only God and possibly you know. For some Protestants, I imagine that even detailed familiarity with the Church might not be enough to make them culpable for not joining her, for other protestants, it might be that just the basest familiarity is enough.

Now, I will make a slight distinction from what my other Catholic friends have said. It is possible to be responsible to come into full communion even if you are not convinced of its truth, because there is such a thing called vincible ignorance, which means that you are morally responsible for not knowing certain things. For instance, if you were to say that if you were to research the Catholic Church you may become convinced that you should join her, so you will purposely never look into it because you don't want to have to join the Church. In that case you would not be convinced of the truth of the Church, but would most likely be responsible for not knowing.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

Where did your baptism occur? Who baptised you?

I was baptised by the pastor of a baptist church.

So how do I know if I am responsible for coming into full communion with the Church?

[drummergirl]

Well, do you think the RC is the true church? If yes, then you would be responsible. If you decide that if you were to really look into it that you may find it is the true church and so you decide to stay ignorant...than you will also be held responsible.

[bobthecockroach]

I firmly believe in the phrase "always reforming." If I was ever convinced that the RCC was the true church then I would join immediately. This thread should serve as evidence that I am not willfully ignorant of the Catholic church but rather that I do look into it. From this I gather that I am not excluded from the possiblity of salvation on those grounds. Would that be correct?