[Sinker]

Is it me?

Seems like an awful lot of questions about non-tube amps get answered with 'buy a tube amp.'

ex:
Q: I've narrowed my choices down to these two solid state amps, should I get A or B and why?
A: Neither, for the same money you can buy a tube amp.

Q: Which of these two stomp boxes gives the best distortion?
A: Neither, use the drive channel of a tube amp.


Can you help me understand the reasoning behind these types of answers?

[MJ_Avalanche]

Haha... that's the number one reason I don't ask questions, 'cause I know that's the answer I always get. I get people telling me that tubes are the best 'cause they give you the best tone or whatever kinda junk... For your first question and answer scenario always take this into consideration:

Buy a tube amp - get one tone.
Buy a modeling/ss amp - get tons of tones.

I guess I myself am a bigger fan of variety.

I've played many tube amps, and I really don't like the tone very much at all. I've played all the Mesa Boogies that we have at the store I work at, and I wasn't impressive with the amp distortion at all. I've played the Crate "tube" amps and wasn't impressed. I've played Fender, Marshall, all that stuff, and didn't like what I heard.

The second question, I can kind of understand, because on-board distortion/overdrive usually sounds better than a pedal does.

Now don't get me wrong, if anyone of you fine folks here love the "all-tube goodness" then by all means, go for it. It's your money. I by no means am gonna tell you that a Line 6 is perfect and captures every tone perfectly, 'cause it doesn't, and I know it. But you know something, it's darn close, and you know who's gonna know the difference once it's on tape? Not one person, unless they have a pretty well developed ear for the difference between tube and ss.

OK, I'm done ranting.

[Visirale]

Well, you can't really have good and variety. Like all those SS amps with 50 million effects are probably cool for a little while. But man... it just doesn't sound as good as a tube amp.

I was watching my friend's band play a show at cornerstone. One guitarist has a crate half stack, SS, and the other guitarist has a Peavey 5150, obviously tube. The 5150 sounded so warm, and the distortion was amazing. The crate (I know crate isn't the best SS brand to begin with) sounded cold, and nasty.

If you are a serious player, then tube should be your thing. Plain as that. Tube gives you quality, tube gives you warmth.

But don't buy a tube amp if you can't afford to maintain one. A poorly maintained tube amp, with poor biasing, is gonna be beat out by any solid state amp any day.

This is all from a bassist mind you. So take what I say with a grain of something...

[Major Tom]

I don't consider it snobbery, but just a very simple and pemanent solution, time tested, and more cost effective in the long run.

'cause every solid state guitar amp, every solid state fuzz pedal, every digital modeler was created in the attempt to simulate what a tube amp does, and has done for over half a century.

Some devices get closer than others, but to my knowledge none has completely succeeded. They lack dynamics for the most part to my ear, right out of the gate. It depends on how picky one is about guitar tone, level of musicianship, and so forth, but going that route if a player wants really good authentic electric guitar tone is kind of a money pit IMHO; every modeler will be replaced with a new improved model every year or two, and what's the improvement? "even more realistic amp modeling!" There's about 8000 different distortion pedals out there, and guys gobble 'em up like crazy, always wantin' that new one they read about or wanting to get theirs modded to sound more "tube like" or whatever, 'cause they hunger for the authentic electric guitar tones. That stuff adds up quick, $$$ cha-ching.

Here's a more practical reason : tube amps hold a decent re-sale value. Solid state stuff, modelers, etc resale value can be plotted on a straight line - one that goes steadily downward, with a lttle vertical jag every time that model gets replaced with the new improved "more realistic tube tone!" model. Of all the classic guitar amps that are collectable, and the ones that are sought out for gigging year after year, going back to tweed Fenders, how many are solid state? I can't think of a single one.

Snobbery? - here's my analogy - if someone came to my town and asked for a good place to get a pizza, I am going to send him to one that uses real ingredients -pizza dough, tomato sauce, 100% dairy cheese, real pepperoni, etc. Even though I don't know him, or know how sophisticated his taste buds are, I will not send him down the street to the Virtual Pizzeria, even though it might be a little cheaper(depending on what you get!). Where everything is made from soybeans, cellulose, and starch, all processed and flavored artificially, with nutrients added to simulate the taste and texture of traditional pizza ingredients. Some people might like it and be happy with it (after all it accomplishes the same thing), but the few times I have eaten there, I always walked away somehow not quite satisfied, and found myself an hour later at KFC! I have ignored the signs that appear on the windows and the flyers on my mailbox advertising that they now have a new and improved tastier virtual dough, or "Our new improved simulated onions crunch like real onions!!! Try one today!!" I ignore it because I just don't think the simulations are going to be as good as the real thing. One thing I am pretty sure of, the simulated stuff will never be better than the real thing, so I won't be missing anything by not going there. Now am I a snob for sending someone to the real deal?

SS simulation stuff has its place and all, good cheap starting point for beginners, and lots of useful applications and compromise solutions for serious musicians too, but for someone who is serious about playing and getting a good sound, and is going to use an amp, why wouldn't I suggest the real thing? Matter of fact if I were to suggest that the 15 year old asking questions on the forum upgrade from his first little amp to the new Marshall SS, or Behringer model because I figured he's not sophisticated enough to appreciate the real thing, and its 100 bux cheaper, all the while I wouldn't even let one of those in my house, now THAT would be snobbery.

Todays modelers, ss amps = tomorrow's dumpster fodder
Today's tube amps = tomorrow's vintage amp market and bargain amp gems for the next generation. Be environmentally responsible - if you are serious about playing, get the real thing and be done with it.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by Sinker

Is it me?

Seems like an awful lot of questions about non-tube amps get answered with 'buy a tube amp.'

ex:
Q: I've narrowed my choices down to these two solid state amps, should I get A or B and why?
A: Neither, for the same money you can buy a tube amp.

Q: Which of these two stomp boxes gives the best distortion?
A: Neither, use the drive channel of a tube amp.


Can you help me understand the reasoning behind these types of answers?

I'm guessing that's describing someone like me...

Plain and simple, the advice I give is simply that tubes sound better. The questions I usually try to answer is "Does (X) SS amp sound like a tube amp?", and generally the answer is no, it doesn't, but it can get pretty close. Matching, no. Now I play a Valvestate II, and I see a few people around asking about these very amps. The only reason I got it was because I got a really good deal out of it. But people ask about them, and I say that a tube amp sounds much, much then this amp, and there are several in that same price range.

So yeah, I guess I'm a tone-freak tube snob, but it's what I like.

Originally Posted by Major Tom

Here's a more practical reason : tube amps hold a decent re-sale value. Solid state stuff, modelers, etc resale value can be plotted on a straight line - one that goes steadily downward, with a lttle vertical jag every time that model gets replaced with the new improved "more realistic tube tone!" model. Of all the classic guitar amps that are collectable, and the ones that are sought out for gigging year after year going back to tweed Fenders, how many are solid state? I can't think of a single one.

Speaking of that... I have a bottom-of-the-line Fender amp. A Fender Champ, from the 60's. It's all tube, and is sweeeeeet!

[Major Tom]

Speaking of that... I have a bottom-of-the-line Fender amp. A Fender Champ, from the 60's. It's all tube, and is sweeeeeet!

I have one too, a BF, they are way cool. Gonna show my age now - I bought it from a guy back in like '72 or '73 for $25. (I think it needed a speaker), which was a good price even back then. New ones were probably 80 - 90 bux or so. One of these days I'm going to use it with the P & W group, and see how it does...

Now, my first amp ever was a little SS Harmony, also with an 8" speaker that my Dad got for me when I first started playing. I can tell you beyond a shadow of doubt that it is at the bottom of a landfill ! My first real amp was a '70 or so Fender Super Reverb. Oh, yeah. I cannot say for sure since I sold it about 30 years ago, but I would guess that it is not at the bottom of a landfill.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

I have one too, a BF, they are way cool. Gonna show my age now - I bought it from a guy back in like '72 or '73 for $25. (I think it needed a speaker), which was a good price even back then. New ones were probably 80 - 90 bux or so. One of these days I'm going to use it with the P & W group, and see how it does...

I should do that sometime now. The one I got is a silverface. I think they go for 1-120 nowadays. Not the first amp I've ever used, but cool little tone machine, nonetheless.

[Visirale]

Oh, one downside to tubes.... They'll kill ya! I'm sure a solid state amp can shock you pretty bad, probably kill you also, but it doesn't have the exposed parts that a tube amp does. You fiddle around back there, and you could recieve a fatal shock.

Heh, think of the shock you'd get from a mesa bass 400+; 500 tube watts. Definately get you to heaven a little quicker than a solid state amp.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by Visirale

Oh, one downside to tubes.... They'll kill ya! I'm sure a solid state amp can shock you pretty bad, probably kill you also, but it doesn't have the exposed parts that a tube amp does. You fiddle around back there, and you could recieve a fatal shock.

True... But there's not a huge chance of dying if you don't fiddle around back there.

[Visirale]

Originally Posted by rainer123

True... But there's not a huge chance of dying if you don't fiddle around back there.

Yeah, but man! THEY LIGHT UP! It's gotta be tempting. Luckily I don't have any tubes yet, so I don't have to worry about it. But man... how about those H&K amps where the whole front face lights up blue... wow. Tubes look cool in the dark, another plus :P.

[SmileAndFollow]

I play bass and I have a solid state that I have tuned in to give me the exact sound Im looking for... Ive played tubes and they didnt really impress me much for bass. For guitars I can hear quite the difference though.

[Hopeful]

I really wouldn't call it tube snobbery. I think the moment you hear a very good tube amp with sweet cleans and the sought-after natural breakup caused by the tubes, most people get hooked. And once a guitarist gets a good one, he is justifiably proud of it. This will cause us to brag about it sometimes and these forums give us a chance to "show off". After playing a SS Marshall for a couple of years, I brought home my '69 Bandmaster Reverb head from Hawaii, had it retubed, got new capacitors and a new power chord and plugged it in. The sound was knock-me-out awesome and I told myself, "This is it!" The search was almost over. I have to get the cab back, but it is just so heavy and I can't see myself lugging the head and cab all over the place. So I did some research and ended up with a Traynor YCV40 which is portable and sounds great, nearly like my Fender. But, having said all that, tubes wear out and the sound deteriorates badly when you need new tubes. And tubes required a little more care. You won't have this problem with a good SS amp.

But, just of show that I'm not all that much of a snob, I have a little Fender Champ DSP 30 watter just for practice and just in case I need something to back up my Traynor. And, if I really get in a pinch, I will use my son's Johnson Amplification JM60 (hybrid with a tube in the preamp).

[CheshireCat]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

Todays modelers, ss amps = tomorrow's dumpster fodder
Today's tube amps = tomorrow's vintage amp market and bargain amp gems for the next generation. Be environmentally responsible - if you are serious about playing, get the real thing and be done with it.

Excellent treatise.

To give you an idea of what Tom is talking about in that last bit, consider this.

Tom and I grew up during the development of the PC. We watched as model after model of Personal Computer and counterpart Monitor came out, with tons of blustery, over-the-top sales talk and heavy panting, heralding this next PC being the most revolutionary breakthru in PC technology.

Then, in a few short years, they were virtually unheard of, as several other models have since come out.

Then, a decade or two later, we discover these old obsolete models again . . . . turned into "kitsch art" or used as doorstops.

For real. No joke.

So, that's the reason why Tom, V, wise-beyond-his-years-Rainer, and myself, are not too impressed when we see all of that same blustery, over-the-top sales talk and heavy panting, heralding this next SS modeling amp (modeling what? Tubes, of course, what else?) as being the most revolutionary breakthru in SS modeling.

And, at the same time, we see people still playing Tube Amps from years ago, which are virtually identical to the orginal designs, without ever thinking twice about SS.

Also, what's the point of having all that "variety" if you never use it all. It's kind of a zen thing. Just have what you will actually use. Keep it Super Simple and Plug-in and Play.

Also, V brought up a very interesting point. In a fraction of the time it takes you to learn how to use all the "variety" buttons, (aka "bells and whistles") on a SS amp, you could learn how to maintain your tube amp and get the sound you want out of it.

Now, if you don't care for the sound of Tube (modeled or not), but rather prefer the sound of SS, well, hey, no worries. Follow your bliss. But if you are even going to entertain the idea of a SS amp modeling a tube amp, then don't even cast askance glances at those who you would classify as "tube snobs" because they, in fact, are playing the very thing that you are trying to model.

Key word: "trying".

Chesh

[Major Tom]

Oh, one downside to tubes.... They'll kill ya! I'm sure a solid state amp can shock you pretty bad, probably kill you also, but it doesn't have the exposed parts that a tube amp does. You fiddle around back there, and you could recieve a fatal shock.

What? There isn't any high voltage stuff exposed, its all inside the chassis, which is grounded except for guts inside the tubes. If you have a broken tube, more than likely it ended up blowing a fuse, so the high voltage potential there would be gone. If the thing is turned on, the tubes are too hot to be squeezing hard enough to break the glass, exposing the high voltage potential. If someone is silly enough to be poking his/her finger into the glass shards of a hot broken power tube, in the back of a tube amp, with the amp turned on.....well, remember that there are benefits to thinning the herd.

You are probably more likely to get killed on the way to where you were going to use it by a drunk driver in a dark green '78 Buick Riviera, ramming the back end of your vehicle, shoving the neck of your guitar (stored in the back) thru the back of your seat, right thru your spleen and 8 other assorted organs, right thru your rib cage, snap, and hitting the #4 preset button on your in-dash radio (which survived the crash), set the day before by your Dad to a creepy oldies station, and the song "We've Only Just Begun" by the Carpenters is the last sound you hear on this earth....

[CheshireCat]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

What? There isn't any high voltage stuff exposed, its all inside the chassis, which is grounded except for guts inside the tubes. If you have a broken tube, more than likely it ended up blowing a fuse, so the high voltage potential there would be gone. If the thing is turned on, the tubes are too hot to be squeezing hard enough to break the glass, exposing the high voltage potential. If someone is silly enough to be poking his/her finger into the glass shards of a hot broken power tube, in the back of a tube amp, with the amp turned on.....well, remember that there are benefits to thinning the herd.

You are probably more likely to get killed on the way to where you were going to use it by a drunk driver in a dark green '78 Buick Riviera, ramming the back end of your vehicle, shoving the neck of your guitar (stored in the back) thru the back of your seat, right thru your spleen and 8 other assorted organs, right thru your rib cage, snap, and hitting the #4 preset button on your in-dash radio (which survived the crash), set the day before by your Dad to a creepy oldies station, and the song "We've Only Just Begun" by the Carpenters is the last sound you hear on this earth....

"Ground Control to Major Tom . . . . . "

You know, Tom, I really think you should be the one to use the Cheshire Cat pic I have in my avvy for your avvy. Given how creepy that scenario was, that pic is probably better suited to you.





Chesh