[CheshireCat]

Originally Posted by rainer123

And oh so rewarding...

Rainer, I think we're pushers!

Chesh

[dnl88]

Well, these "snobs" convinced me!!!!

soon u'll be getting another snob with a 60W tube amp

[Tom Friend]

Originally Posted by rainer123

And oh so rewarding...

I used to design amps for a living- in my experience you don't do it for the money.

[fendstratplaya]

Originally Posted by Tom Friend

I used to design amps for a living- in my experience you don't do it for the money.

I think he just meant it was self-rewarding....you feel proud to have done the work yourself.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by fendstratplaya

I think he just meant it was self-rewarding....you feel proud to have done the work yourself.

I think that's what Tom meant.

[fendstratplaya]

i see.....guess i just read it wrong at the time...

[PianoMan]

Thread is now stickied as it has a lot of good info.

[guitarguy3612]

I really have to say that after reading alot of posts about this whole tube snobbery mumbo jumbo I've come up with one thought. I remember just starting out playing guitar and not really caring a whole lot what my tone was like. I was more focused on playing the guitar and learning chords. As time went on I started to get more tone friendly and was very open to listening for a good/bad tone coming from my amp.
My point is that I think TUBE amps are kind of an acquired taster in a sense. It really takes a bit of a trained ear or an ear that has some experience with different sounds/tones that can pick out the differences. For the novice, a tube amp may not sound different than a SS one at all. But for someone with a bit more years and who has heard more sounds from amps will probably be able to hear the difference.
I know for me, it took like 3 years until I hear my first tube amp and could really pick out the differences i heard between TUBE and SS. What i really notice the most now is a sense of warmth that comes with your areas of playing. I mean certain chords are picked up in ways that make you bend your knees or open your mouth while playng them. It's like a love almost that makes you just kind of feel real funky inside (hard to explain). Tube amps have a way of picking up your dynamics in your playing TONS better than SS. For me, they've made me have to learn to play guitar better because they pickup the slightest mistakes that you may have.
What I'm not trying to say is that tube amps are a MUST. Cause they're not. SS was created as a cost effective way to amplify guitars. And c'mon I'm sure the majority of starters used and still use SS amps. There is really no problem with that and if someone wants to buy a SS amp we don't need to lash out and say NO BUY A TUBE AMP MAN. Tube amps need to be discovered by the player for them to really be brought in and nurtured by them. If someone wants a suggestion of a SS amp, give them one because thats what they asked for. I'm with all you TUBE gurus out there who love TUBE tone. I do too. But thats our opinion and that ultimately comes out when we say things like BUY A TUBE AMP THEY'RE THE BEST!! Yeah ...sorry for rambling hope what I'm trying to say makes sense. ROCK ON!

[PianoMan]

^ Awesome post. Very good points about cost effectiveness.

[Major Tom]

Guitarguy 3612 wrote:
Tube amps have a way of picking up your dynamics in your playing TONS better than SS.

That is exactly the difference IMHO. Aside from the tonality, the harmonics generated - all that stuff, a tube amp when adjusted properly, fed a proper signal and especially when its loud enough to get the power tubes involved, has a different dynamic - the amount of distortion and compression varies so much with the amount of signal, whether it is changed from a volume pedal, the guitar's volume pot, or the plucking "strength", or just as the notes naturally decay. SS amps and devices may come close, I certainly have not auditioned every one of them, but they tend to be less dynamic in terms of the distortion and compression.

Using a tube amp at lower volumes, with the gain up and the master down, only yields preamp tube disto/comp, since the power tubes are still in their hi-fidelity range of operation, which tends to sound more like the SS stuff. That may be part of the reason why a lot of players don't hear that much of a difference between the tubes and SS - they were not able to audition it or use it on an ongoing basis at a volume where the the power tubes became part of the tonal equation. That's where the REAL tube mojo is.

To me, changing from using a tube amp with the master turned down, to either using a smaller tube amp, or an attenuator on the output and getting that sweet power tube mojo, is at least as big a step up in tone as going from SS to tube.

[Tom Friend]

Originally Posted by rainer123

I think that's what Tom meant.

I did it because it kept me closer to the music industry (I thought), and it got me plenty of great toys. Kilowatt audio amps were not that common in the mid 70's, and for some obscure reason I thought I needed a few. So I had the loudest bass rig in town.

Later I realized I could make more money doing other things- enough more to afford better toys.

Meanwhile, back to the topic at hand... I am really diggin' on my new Vox 120VTH / AD412 / VC12 combination. It is a hybrid tube/SS design with some extremely sophisticated modelling built in. It can be a dead ringer for all the "classic" valve amps I've played through over the years (AC30, Twin Reverb), and a number I have avoided (Mesa Boogie for one). Programming it is easier than my Digitech GNX-2 "gas pedal", and the sound is far more accurate. More usable than a POD, too. As long as this holds up, I think I am a happy camper.

[CheshireCat]

Originally Posted by guitarguy3612

I really have to say that after reading alot of posts about this whole tube snobbery mumbo jumbo I've come up with one thought. I remember just starting out playing guitar and not really caring a whole lot what my tone was like. I was more focused on playing the guitar and learning chords. As time went on I started to get more tone friendly and was very open to listening for a good/bad tone coming from my amp.
My point is that I think TUBE amps are kind of an acquired taster in a sense. It really takes a bit of a trained ear or an ear that has some experience with different sounds/tones that can pick out the differences. For the novice, a tube amp may not sound different than a SS one at all. But for someone with a bit more years and who has heard more sounds from amps will probably be able to hear the difference.
I know for me, it took like 3 years until I hear my first tube amp and could really pick out the differences i heard between TUBE and SS. What i really notice the most now is a sense of warmth that comes with your areas of playing. I mean certain chords are picked up in ways that make you bend your knees or open your mouth while playng them. It's like a love almost that makes you just kind of feel real funky inside (hard to explain). Tube amps have a way of picking up your dynamics in your playing TONS better than SS. For me, they've made me have to learn to play guitar better because they pickup the slightest mistakes that you may have.
What I'm not trying to say is that tube amps are a MUST. Cause they're not. SS was created as a cost effective way to amplify guitars. And c'mon I'm sure the majority of starters used and still use SS amps. There is really no problem with that and if someone wants to buy a SS amp we don't need to lash out and say NO BUY A TUBE AMP MAN. Tube amps need to be discovered by the player for them to really be brought in and nurtured by them. If someone wants a suggestion of a SS amp, give them one because thats what they asked for. I'm with all you TUBE gurus out there who love TUBE tone. I do too. But thats our opinion and that ultimately comes out when we say things like BUY A TUBE AMP THEY'RE THE BEST!! Yeah ...sorry for rambling hope what I'm trying to say makes sense. ROCK ON!

First, you make some excellent points.

I think the whole thing about recommending a tube when people ask for SS recommendations comes down to, at least around here, dispelling the myth that tube amps are pricey and hard to work with.

Basically, if someone, as you suggests, just wants a good tube amp for financial reasons, or perhaps some other SS related reasons (whatever they may be), then it makes all the sense in the world to go with an SS recommendation.

However, when a newbie comes on here and talks about spending big bucks on what they think is a SS amp, only they start listing all of these features and attributes that quickly and decisively spell "Tube", then many of us will first start asking questions rather than recommending amps.

Often what turns up is the misconception that Tube Amps are either a sort of a necessary evil in some cases, or far too problematic for a newbie to contend with, and it is best to work a workaround to avoid having to deal with getting a tube. So, they basically try to find the ideal "next best thing", an SS amp that virtually is a tube, without being a tube.

So, basically, that is where the appearance of Tube Snobbery comes from -- dispelling (sometimes adamantly) these myths.

I mean, the debate between Tube and SS can rage on, and has for years, but in terms of what you address, I see that as more dispelling myths and educating, rather than giving agendistic, countering advice.

Chesh

[dReAmIn4EvEr]

if i remember correctly, john petrucci doesnt use tube amps....so ya ummm lol hes the best guitarist

[fudrudler]

I remember correctly and he does use tube amps.

[ApparentlyNothing]

Originally Posted by dReAmIn4EvEr

if i remember correctly, john petrucci doesnt use tube amps....so ya ummm lol hes the best guitarist

You must remember incredibly wrong. For them being your favorite band, you don't really know much about the gear he uses. I'm not too much of a Dream Theater fan, but I am definitly a gear fan, so I know that he uses all tube amps, both heads and rack.